John Carmack on DOOM3 Rendering

Discussion in 'Beyond3D News' started by Dave Baumann, Jun 11, 2002.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Saem

    Veteran

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2002
    Messages:
    1,532
    Likes Received:
    6
    Guest12343,

    You should realize that Unreal Tournament 2003 and Doom3 are doing different things. UT2k3 is all about pushing many polies and large textures. For the most part I think most will considered it a slightly improved Q3:TA in this regard. Doom3 can't push a lot of polies otherwise performance will take an incredible nose dive. That has nothing to do with efficiency, rather the hardware just can't produce.
     
  2. Gubbi

    Veteran

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2002
    Messages:
    3,528
    Likes Received:
    862
    I agree.

    Doom III and Halo 2 are clearly the next step in real time graphics (Offline renders also render in real time, but you know....), while UT2K3 is clearly just evolutionary increment over Q3A/others...

    Cheers
    Gubbi
     
  3. Anonymous

    Veteran

    Joined:
    May 12, 1978
    Messages:
    3,263
    Likes Received:
    0
    definately, Comparing Doom III and UT2003 is like comparing apples and oranges. The both serve different purposes and serve them well...

    UT2003 is about fancy landscapes, high-poly chars and large textures, but relies heavily on static lighting (Dynamic light mapping is not as frequently used) IMHO, so performance is way better. Where Doom III is all about atmosphere. A huge emphasis is placed on dynamic lighting and shadows and quite frankly scaring the crap out of you. Anyone who has seen the alpha demo can relate to this. The game looks and feels awesome! Even if you only get 70fps on a 8500/GF4 (projected final speed based on the alpha speed), it wont matter, chances are you wont be moving that fast anyway :wink:

    For those who think JC is not godlike, take a good look at the games based on the Q2/Q3 engine (Quake 3 sucked as a game, but the engine rocks), enuf said..

    Tim Sweeny vs Carmack -- Ill take Sweeny in the 3rd round 8)
     
  4. Anonymous

    Veteran

    Joined:
    May 12, 1978
    Messages:
    3,263
    Likes Received:
    0
    JC is no God, but...

    ... to say that his engines sucked is clearly false. This is probably a rather late response to that certain post, but I feel like throwing out some impressions that someone who has no clue about coding has gained about 3D engines. I am, so to say, an amateur who dabbles in level design, and therefore I can't judge engines by their perfect detail code. But I can tell you what JC has done so far in large steps:

    Wolfenstein 3D -> Doom. Suddenyl, there were different sectors with height and lighting. If that wasn't a huge step, I don't know what is. First engine of this kind to do that at the time, AFAIK.

    Doom -> Quake. You say Quake sucked? How about realizing that JC went from a sector based game to a brush based game. Geez, yeah, Duke Nukem had gimmicks, but it was still a 2.5D game in that it was based on sectors. Try making levels for Duke. Now try Quake. There's true 3D, no more sprite models. That was a HUGE step. Dynamic lighting? Check. I was amazed at the time simply at shooting a rocket down a hallway. Amazing stuff. Not to forget GLQuake and QuakeWorld.


    Quake -> Quake2. Now the Scourge expansion pack already introduced rotating brushes, Q2 reinforced that, plus colored lighting. Not as great a leap in engine and design possibilities, but definitely something.

    Quake2 -> Quake3. In my eyes, not a huge improvement engine-wise. That's why it's not called a new game, but a successor (number 3). Yeah, better graphics and other eye candy, but the best improvements in my mind were in the network code and similar areas.

    Quake3 -> Doom3. Vastly improved lighting and animation - but that's not what I am excited about. Physics - yeeees, there it is. I don't know enough about the new engine to say mroe about improvements in several areas...

    ... but the main steps in 3D render engines were always advanced by id. He's no god, certainly, but a man with a vision for features that are truly 3D.

    - XP
     
  5. Anonymous

    Veteran

    Joined:
    May 12, 1978
    Messages:
    3,263
    Likes Received:
    0
    I am amazed at the wide variety of impressions people get from looking at the Doom3 engine. I am very impressed with how it looks, and I am impressed that it is so much closer to providing realistic, if stylized, lighting, shadows and surface effects. I can't see how anyone could be disappointed. So what if the engine isn't best suited for rendering perfect, tree-covered mountains five miles away or that the creatures become slightly blocky when they are inches from your face (and I mean a little)? Who can do this better in the relatively near term?

    I see a massive difference in the overall impact between Doom 3 and all other games of that type graphically. The "gestalt" is there with the lighting, modeling and physics all working together. Much improved all around. I've see the leaked alpha, and I still think this.

    --Zar
     
  6. Anonymous

    Veteran

    Joined:
    May 12, 1978
    Messages:
    3,263
    Likes Received:
    0
    Given that the characters are decimated from a very high polygon mesh, shouldn't it be possible to very easily create higher poly versions of the characters? Or would this involve lots of artist tweaks?
     
  7. Anonymous

    Veteran

    Joined:
    May 12, 1978
    Messages:
    3,263
    Likes Received:
    0
    The truth 3

    The only reasons why so many people used the Quake engines is because

    1) Quake was hyped & marketed very well. Everyone thought it was the best thing since sliced bread when in reality there were a lot better games with a lot better engines at the time. JC too was marketed very well. Everyone thought he was God. It's a well known fact several project leaders were fired because they dared to suggest something other then the Quake engine be used (something which was a lot better but without the hype)
    2) At a latter stage, the fact that everyone else was using it was also the cause. This was in two ways. Number one, since everyone else was using it, it was assumed to be good. Number two, the only real good reason this one, that is because everyone else was using it, there had been a lot of developements and improvements by other people. A lot of fairly decent Quake based engines were out there at a later stage. None of it was done by JC of course. Some of it was done internally by iD when JC wasn't looking but most of it was done by other people who had been forced to use it. Ironically, many people still had to pretend to JC they wanted his engine but in reality they were taking someone else's (not necessarily iD) fixed & improved Quake engine. Obviously too, a lot of useful feedback and support was available from a few secret sources in iD and from other companies. Of course, everyone had to be careful not to step on JC's toes. One team I know estimated at least 5% of their time was spent kissing JC's ass so he wouldn't throw one of the tantrums he well known for and try to stop you using 'his' engine.

    I pity iD. They've got themselves stuck in a quandum. JC is preventing them from making any real noteworthy products. True, they have managed to attract a lot of talent to them and as their products from Quake 1 to Doom3 are steadily getting more worthy of the hype and they are slowly getting closer to actually being a revolution rather then a 'been there, done that' kind of thing. But because of JC, they still have not managed to produce a product that is actually close to being worthy of the hype or revolutionary (or even evolutionary) compared to what is already out there. But yet it is because of JC, they get all the hype and demand for their products along with managing to attract the talent that makes them such a capable company not to mention the cash payouts from Nvidia, ATI, etc.... So what can they do? They def can't fire him. I have heard of serious talk of actually eliminating him at one stage but that was decided to be too risky. I have heard though they are steadily encouraging him to adopt a higher risk lifestyle... I would really like to see iD produce something we know they are capable of but as long as JC is alive, I doubt it personally.

    P.S. Instead of repeat misleading claims about features which were already present in a number of (unpopular) games and engines when Quake 1, 2, 3 etc came out, why don't you actually tell us something which was in the original Quake 1,2,3 engines which had not been done a lot better before?

    Also what does physics have to do with JC? That idiot doesn't even understand Newton's laws....

    Who ever said that a successor can't be revolutionary or at least evolutionary? Quake 2 and 3 came out a long time after Quake 1 & 2 respectively, more then enough time to actually do something at least evolutionary rather then waiting for people forced to use the engines to improve it then taking their developements and claiming it was your own... By your logic, Doom3 should perhaps be like the crappy Duke Nukem 3D (Which I admit was crappy) because it's just a successor to Doom2. And Warcraft3? Muahahahaha. Being a succesor is not the issue. The issue is how mcuh time was available for something better to be developed. How did it compare to things already done? Quake 2 & 3 failed in all areas sadly....
     
  8. Saem

    Veteran

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2002
    Messages:
    1,532
    Likes Received:
    6
    JC ain't God,

    You make a lot of claims but fail to back it up with the slightest shred of evidence.
     
  9. Hellbinder

    Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2002
    Messages:
    1,444
    Likes Received:
    12
    What??? Based on what... Duke3D is freaking awesome. its level of interactivity was WAAAAAY beyond anything of its time. You could play pool with your shotgun for crying out loud!!!

    Oh really... interesting. Why dont you back that up with some actual features and games.. instead of just your keyboard and ananimity.

    Who had the first truly free moving 3D engine?
    Who had the first colored dynamic lighting?
    Who had the first Rotating Brushes?

    At the time of Quake.. Please enlighten us.. praytell.. had these features and many others? Unreal was the first engine to actually go beyond an id offering during its time. All the other great 3D engines came out AFTER Quake, and most were made by team members who left id and started their own company.
     
  10. Hellbinder

    Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2002
    Messages:
    1,444
    Likes Received:
    12
    BULLSHIT... :roll:

    Dude you are nothing but a common know-nothing slanderer. Period. You need to shut your mouth.

    Nothing of what you say is evidenced i the real world AT ALL. Those that used the origional quake engine are publcally on record for their list of changes and enhancements. Like Valve, just as an example.

    Guess what pal.. the above would be ILLEGAL, and a breach in licence.. and simply would not be done. On top of wich, What other licencee's at that time would have been around to *fix* the broken engine? None. What your saying is completely and utterly Preposterous.

    I cant even understnd were you get off posting pure trollop like this. its just plain WRONG (from a moral standpoint)
     
  11. Anonymous

    Veteran

    Joined:
    May 12, 1978
    Messages:
    3,263
    Likes Received:
    0
    yeah

    I really don't know what tha hell you guyz are talking about what with tha buffers and passes and shit like dat, all i wanna know is if the cacodemons are gonna look tha same as in doom 2 only polyginized, cuz if they arent i might not even wanna get tha game cuz im obsessed with cacodemons and i think they are tha scariest looking monsters ever.
     
  12. Anonymous

    Veteran

    Joined:
    May 12, 1978
    Messages:
    3,263
    Likes Received:
    0
    Re: yeah

    Don't worry. I doubt you'll be able to tell the difference between the cocademons in Doom 2. And even if it's really zombies being rendered, cocademos are just like zombies, right? Right?


    Uttar ( who just added this quote to his quote .txt file )
     
  13. Anonymous

    Veteran

    Joined:
    May 12, 1978
    Messages:
    3,263
    Likes Received:
    0
    Re: yeah

    Cocademons? You mean Doom 3 will have drug dealers in it? :D
     
  14. Anonymous

    Veteran

    Joined:
    May 12, 1978
    Messages:
    3,263
    Likes Received:
    0
    hmm

    Hmm im a uted3 /ut2003 mapper “hobby map per /pro as I cant get a job haha “and I think you underestimate the potential of what the engine is cabala of ,doom is cool because it has mood “by choice ut maps are light as people bitch its to dark and also like there mommy to tuck them in at night ….i can make uted3 look nearly same as doom3 with higher fps the only thing I find interesting about doom3 engine is it texturing …
    And lets face it if doom 3 is any thing like the leek id be worried/but then again it was still in early stages of construction so no 1 knows what the end result will be
    Doom lives by reputation ill get it as im a doom child …but lets face this fact
    I can make cool as levels with low fps which make you wet your pants but in that what is a cool looking map with low fps …crap … and this is just on single player “trying to push an engine that is chocking on what they trying to out put from it “ I think id soft need to take a step back and realize uted3 is far superior engine to build there doom 3 in
    and if they need a good map per well here I am……
    :eek:
     
  15. Tim Murray

    Tim Murray the Windom Earle of mobile SOCs
    Veteran

    Joined:
    May 25, 2003
    Messages:
    3,278
    Likes Received:
    66
    Location:
    Mountain View, CA
    The previous was one of the most incomprehensible posts I have ever read. It's like Vambat... only even less meaningful. Unfathomable.
     
  16. digitalwanderer

    digitalwanderer Dangerously Mirthful
    Legend

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2002
    Messages:
    17,276
    Likes Received:
    1,788
    Location:
    Winfield, IN USA
    Re: hmm

    Said53 posts at B3D now? :|
     
  17. Ichneumon

    Regular

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2002
    Messages:
    414
    Likes Received:
    1
    Re: hmm

    lol... There's no escape. :)
     
  18. micron

    micron Diamond Viper 550
    Veteran

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2003
    Messages:
    1,189
    Likes Received:
    12
    Location:
    U.S.
    Re: hmm

    Gawd I wish :D
     
  19. Anonymous

    Veteran

    Joined:
    May 12, 1978
    Messages:
    3,263
    Likes Received:
    0
    eat some of my words

    :shock: im dude that seed uted was best for doom i think i could be very rong all i can say is wow but shame fps is so sad
    some 1 can make me textures in uted like that ,god dam ill make a high fps doom for id soft in uted3 haha <--dreamer na i see why the fps are so bad
    i think id soft put in all the extras witch eat fps ,but they must realize
    they should have waited a few years before brining a dream like that to life when pc,s could handle the pure ecstasy of the game play and exquisite graphics and mood...
     
  20. Razor04

    Newcomer

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2003
    Messages:
    121
    Likes Received:
    0
    Re: eat some of my words

    Can someone please translate this to English for me?
     
Loading...
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page

  • About Us

    Beyond3D has been around for over a decade and prides itself on being the best place on the web for in-depth, technically-driven discussion and analysis of 3D graphics hardware. If you love pixels and transistors, you've come to the right place!

    Beyond3D is proudly published by GPU Tools Ltd.
Loading...