Is memory size the true indicator of a console's capability?

[DeadmeatGA]

I am still amazed by the quality of Saturn Shen Mue, the very fact that AM2 was able to pull this title on an otherwise stock Saturn with 4 MB Ram Cart. AM2 would not have been able to do a title like this on stock Saturn, PSX or N64. Seems that the processing power limitation can be overcome with clever programming, but the lack of memory can't be. So is the memory size the true indicator of a console's peak capability? I wonder why console companies no longer include memory expansion capabilities for consoles anymore, Saturn and N64 had them but ever since the closed-architectures like PSX and PSX2 prevailed on the market, they are gone.

 

[zurich]

Simple.

It's never a good idea to segment your market.

 

[marconelly!]

Seems that the processing power limitation can be overcome with clever programming, but the lack of memory can't be.

Various compression techniques, etc. Of course it can. Just look how many teams now are making various kinds of texture compressions on PS2, even though they are not natively supported by hardware.

 

[DeadmeatGA]

...

It's never a good idea to segment your market.

You don't segment the market if

1. Factory-install the memory expansion on all newly shipped machines.(Look how Sony made the transition from the standard controller to dual-shock without the market rejection)
2. Make the memory expansion at low cost.($30 would be a good price)

Various compression techniques, etc.

Better designed consoles already have those in hardware. Only those data types that do not compress well(executable code, display list, animation datat) don't have hardware decompressors.

 

[zsouthboy]

Wait.. what? Shen Mue was released for the SATURN?

I'm lost.

 

[chaphack]

:shrugs: i cant see why Shenmue Saturn is THAT impressive. :shrugs: especially not from tiny screens and videos. I say, VagrantStory/SoulReaver/Zeldas look pretty hot themselves.

Saturn and N64 had them but ever since the closed-architectures like PSX and PSX2 prevailed on the market, they are gone.

Blame Sony again?

 

[clem64]

Upgrades are tricky to implement successfully in the life of a console. But I believe there are ways to make it happen.

Let's say a company would choose to make a RAM upgrade for their console and make it available, say 2 1/2 years after launch. They could,

1. at that point start packing in the upgrade with every console sold

2. for existing owners, they could make sure that a *huge* game comes out on the day the upgrade is launched, which includes the upgrade and also requires it (kinda like DK64)

3. Sell the upgrade cheap. 20-25$ Not making money on the hardware in an effort to sell it as cheap as possible, to try to make every existing owner get it.

Would that work? I dunno but it would probably end up reaching a significant % of the userbase.

 

[marconelly!]

Better designed consoles already have those in hardware. Only those data types that do not compress well(executable code, display list, animation datat) don't have hardware decompressors.

So what? Compression techniques are an obvious way around memory 'problems', regardless where they are implemented. If you look at how small memory is on today's consoles, you'd think their games would have to look crappy. Yet, various texture compression schemes help them all (not just PS2 that I mentioned as an example)

 

[_phil_]

Maybe Ps3 will be Upgradable to PS4.

BTW, I saw bad artist having the need for a 512*512 texture to achieve as much detail and perceptual efficiency that a good old school bitmaper could get on a 256*256....

Also procedural description can spare memory.

 

[London Geezer]

first they complain about add-ons, and the HDD... and the Memory packs... and the 32X.... blah blah blah.. then they come up asking why we don't have more of them??? :?

*me=lost*

 

[cthellis42]

I kinda figure, if CELL works solidly, that they WILL eventually have "expansions" for the PS3. Once the process is cheap enough and they don't have to dedicate it all to the consoles, I can see them working on dedicated "expansion boxes" to see if people bite. No drive units, no huge case, none of the typical stuff... Just an extra CELL setup with the appropriate connectivity. Certainly be something interesting to try out.

 

[London Geezer]

thats fair enough, but what happened to the "add-ons-fail" philosophy?
to be honest, i wouldnt want my ps3 to need an add-on to "become more powerful"... personally i think that add-ons should only be made and sold if they can provide "different" features, NOT to make the base machine "more powerful".
the PS2 (and GC) network adapter and Xbox's Live pack thing are cool, the N64 memory expansion pack is NOT.
the Eye Toy is cool, the Sega 32X is NOT.
the PS2 HDD is half and half, more because it's pretty useless at present time...
u see the trend? the add-ons that supsedly make the base machine "more powerful" FAIL. an add-on that simply provides different features not included in the base machine can potentially be successful.

 

[Lazy8s]

What may come as even more of a surprise is this revelation:

(snippet taken from an interview with AM2's Shin Ishikawa and Taku Kihara)
Q: Can you tell us a little bit more about the unreleased Saturn version? How long had it been worked on, and did it use the experimental Saturn expansion cartridge or the 4meg RAM card?
A: Nearly two years of work was put in the Saturn version. It didn’t use a booster cartridge nor did it use the 4meg RAM card, so yes, the game was programmed for, and the footage seen as an extra on Shenmue II is from the code running on a stock Saturn.
http://www.the-nextlevel.com/features/interviews/am2/

It's an informative interview with some candid responses. They even discuss how AM2 finds Xbox and Naomi 2 to compare.

 

[Simon F]

They even discuss how AM2 finds Xbox and Naomi 2 to compare.

Brings a tear to my eye.

 

[Crazyace]

It's always memory

In nearly all cases memory limits show up the limits of games - compression techniques used on one machine can also be used on another machine with more memory.. even code will generally compress down to half size quite easily

 

[notAFanB]

1. Factory-install the memory expansion on all newly shipped machines.(Look how Sony made the transition from the standard controller to dual-shock without the market rejection)

er, sorry come again?????

 

[Tagrineth]

1. Factory-install the memory expansion on all newly shipped machines.(Look how Sony made the transition from the standard controller to dual-shock without the market rejection)

er, sorry come again?????

i.e. every new PS1 once DualShock was available, shipped with a DS as the default pad instead of the digital-only one. Factory-installed. It'd be like buying an N64 new in box with an Expansion Pak in place of the original Jumper Pak.

 

[London Geezer]

back to topic,

i think that so far, and for some time to come, maybe even in the next generation, THE single most evident "bottleneck" of consoles was the amount of memory available to them. in the circumstances, then YES i think one could say that in general terms, the console with the biggest amount of memory is in the position to be more "powerful" (whatever that means nowadays) than the ones with less memory.
and we have also seen that is actually the case. surely, machines with small amounts of memory might be able to shine in other areas, but nowadays, where a game is ALMOST always "nice" looking for the quality of the textures and the IQ, then yes, i think that generally the machine that can store the most amount of textures will produce games that can be considered "better looking"...
still, a game can be absolutely stunning even without super hi-res textures.

 

[jvd]

Well in a perfect world you'd have more cpu power , graphics power , ram , ram speed and what not . But the best designs are the ones that balance those needs. Lets take a playstation as an example . We could have had 512 megs of ram and compression for the graphics chip. But could the playstation really take advantage of that much ram ? Would it have added to much money to the price of the console. Was that an upgrade that would have increased the shelf life of the playstation .

All add ins fail . The sega cd , sega 32x , nintendo 64 4 meg upgrade , sony broad band , hardrive , xbox live . They all fail. Don't let sony and ms fool you. Anything less than 50% of the market is a failure and anything less than 99% of the market for a memory or processer upgrade fails . My feeling is they should all be added into the system from the start.

 

[Fox5]

Out of all those add ons, I'd say the n64 4 meg expansion was the most successful, but it was also the cheapest and practically given away with many different things.

BTW, what do you mean less than 99% of the market for a memory or processor upgrade? Even if AMD didn't exist, Intel couldn't get that, and if you mean different formats, a 50-50 market could survive.