Interesting Blog about the rise of fundamentalism in Iraq

[zurich]

http://riverbendblog.blogspot.com

Written by an educated (female) CS programmer in Bahgdad.. the text quoted is from the August 23 2003 entry.

Females can no longer leave their homes alone. Each time I go out, E. and either a father, uncle or cousin has to accompany me. It feels like we’ve gone back 50 years ever since the beginning of the occupation. A woman, or girl, out alone, risks anything from insults to abduction. An outing has to be arranged at least an hour beforehand. I state that I need to buy something or have to visit someone. Two males have to be procured (preferably large) and 'safety arrangements' must be made in this total state of lawlessness. And always the question: "But do you have to go out and buy it? Can't I get it for you?" No you can't, because the kilo of eggplant I absolutely have to select with my own hands is just an excuse to see the light of day and walk down a street. The situation is incredibly frustrating to females who work or go to college.

Before the war, around 50% of the college students were females, and over 50% of the working force was composed of women. Not so anymore. We are seeing an increase of fundamentalism in Iraq which is terrifying.

<snip>

Someone asked me if, through elections, the Iraqi people might vote for an Islamic state. Six months ago, I would have firmly said, “No.†Now, I’m not so sure. There’s been an overwhelming return to fundamentalism. People are turning to religion for several reasons.

The first and most prominent reason is fear. Fear of war, fear of death and fear of a fate worse than death (and yes, there are fates worse than death). If I didn’t have something to believe in during this past war, I know I would have lost my mind. If there hadn’t been a God to pray to, to make promises to, to bargain with, to thank- I wouldn’t have made it through.

Encroaching western values and beliefs have also played a prominent role in pushing Iraqis to embrace Islam. Just as there are ignorant people in the Western world (and there are plenty- I have the emails to prove it… don’t make me embarrass you), there are ignorant people in the Middle East. In Muslims and Arabs, Westerners see suicide bombers, terrorists, ignorance and camels. In Americans, Brits, etc. some Iraqis see depravity, prostitution, ignorance, domination, junkies and ruthlessness. The best way people can find to protect themselves, and their loved ones, against this assumed threat is religion.

Finally, you have more direct reasons. 65% of all Iraqis are currently unemployed for one reason or another. There are people who have families to feed. When I say ‘families’ I don’t mean a wife and 2 kids… I mean around 16 or 17 people. Islamic parties supported by Iran, like Al-Daawa and SCIRI, are currently recruiting followers by offering ‘wages’ to jobless men (an ex-soldier in the army, for example) in trade of ‘support’. This support could mean anything- vote when the elections come around, bomb a specific shop, ‘confiscate’, abduct, hijack cars (only if you work for Al-Chalabi…).

So concerning the anxiety over terror and fundamentalism- I would like to quote the Carpenters- worry? “We’ve only just begun… we’ve only just begun…â€

It's ironic that the US seems keen on curbing Islamic fundamentalism, yet their campaign in Iraq seems to have been a big catalyst for it (despite Iraq being one of the most 'liberal' nations in the middle east there prior to the war).

 

[Legion]

Re: Interesting Blog about the rise of fundamentalism in Ira

It's ironic that the US seems keen on curbing Islamic fundamentalism, yet their campaign in Iraq seems to have been a big catalyst for it (despite Iraq being one of the most 'liberal' nations in the middle east there prior to the war).

Why is this so shocking? Look what happened in afganistan. Examine the histories of surrounding nations I wouldn't call this ironic i would call it predictable. This is only one facet of the cultural personality of the people we are dealing with. The people of Iraq apparently aren't liberal enough not to default back to religious fundamentalism. Not a surpise. Many cultures in the past have turned back to stricter forms of religion within their culture. I believe these actions to be mainly do to sudden change. It is more than likely temporary. However we will probably see some terrorist activities occur. America will be blamed, europe will do nothing, and the cycle will repeat.

 

[zurich]

Re: Interesting Blog about the rise of fundamentalism in Ira

It's ironic that the US seems keen on curbing Islamic fundamentalism, yet their campaign in Iraq seems to have been a big catalyst for it (despite Iraq being one of the most 'liberal' nations in the middle east there prior to the war).

Why is this so shocking? Look what happened in afganistan. Examine the histories of surrounding nations I wouldn't call this ironic i would call it predictable. This is only one facet of the cultural personality of the people we are dealing with. The people of Iraq apparently aren't liberal enough not to default back to religious fundamentalism. Not a surpise. Many cultures in the past have turned back to stricter forms of religion within their culture. I believe these actions to be mainly do to sudden change. It is more than likely temporary. However we will probably see some terrorist activities occur. America will be blamed, europe will do nothing, and the cycle will repeat.

With regards to Afghanistan, Kabul seems to be a big time party city these days (ie: Islam-what?), while the rest of the country gets ravaged by war lords. It's anyone's guess as to why Kabul has escaped a shift to fundamentalism (heavy Western influence? Focus of foreign aid and investment?), but it has and will probably remain so until the troops completely pull out and the country collapses

 

[Sazar]

Re: Interesting Blog about the rise of fundamentalism in Ira

It's ironic that the US seems keen on curbing Islamic fundamentalism, yet their campaign in Iraq seems to have been a big catalyst for it (despite Iraq being one of the most 'liberal' nations in the middle east there prior to the war).

Why is this so shocking? Look what happened in afganistan. Examine the histories of surrounding nations I wouldn't call this ironic i would call it predictable. This is only one facet of the cultural personality of the people we are dealing with. The people of Iraq apparently aren't liberal enough not to default back to religious fundamentalism. Not a surpise. Many cultures in the past have turned back to stricter forms of religion within their culture. I believe these actions to be mainly do to sudden change. It is more than likely temporary. However we will probably see some terrorist activities occur. America will be blamed, europe will do nothing, and the cycle will repeat.

and iran...

 

[Legion]

Re: Interesting Blog about the rise of fundamentalism in Ira

and iran...

True. I have nothing against the US involvements. No one should take the blame for the actions of these fundamentalists but the fundamentalists themselves. If Europe feels the need to pass blame on the US it's actions perhaps they ought to stop turning a blind eye to africa and help mop up a lot problems they (by the same reasoning) helped cause.

 

[Legion]

Re: Interesting Blog about the rise of fundamentalism in Ira

With regards to Afghanistan, Kabul seems to be a big time party city these days (ie: Islam-what?), while the rest of the country gets ravaged by war lords. It's anyone's guess as to why Kabul has escaped a shift to fundamentalism (heavy Western influence? Focus of foreign aid and investment?), but it has and will probably remain so until the troops completely pull out and the country collapses

Well i think we can stand to be a tad more optimistic....

I would agree that western involvment has helped in more ways then one. I believe one of the major reasons for the "fundy backslide" is a certain level of draw fundamentalism has for people who lack economic certainty. Which appears as an axiom of religion in general.

Honestly, i wish europe would dedicate a more concentrated effort to help the US in efforts around the world. The UN is doing nothing to help many nations around the world fight against tyranny in their own countries, a reason for which the UN was originally created.

 

[Moffell]

Re: Interesting Blog about the rise of fundamentalism in Ira

The UN is doing nothing to help many nations around the world fight against tyranny in their own countries, a reason for which the UN was originally created.

Not that I don't agree with the sentiment but that was never the reason why the UN was created AFAIK. UN was created to help keep the peace between nations, not depose of evil dictators in various countries or promote democracy in the world.

Assigning attributes to the UN that it doesn't have may be an effective way of bashing the UN for not living up to (yet) another one of its reason for existing but not very honest IMO. Which in turn peaks my curiosity; From where did you get this information?

 

[Humus]

Re: Interesting Blog about the rise of fundamentalism in Ira

Honestly, i wish europe would dedicate a more concentrated effort to help the US in efforts around the world.

Well, so wish I. Though for instance in Iraq I think it would be easier if the US didn't want to dictate everything. Basically, the EU and many others were very willing to provide help and support in many areas after the war, but the US more or less wanted to run it alone, with less than impressive results.

 

[jandar]

Too many dirty hands all around and noone wants to own up.

 

[epicstruggle]

how soon we forget,

how soon we forget.... Anyone remember saddam releasing almost every single prisoner from the jails? Come on dont you think that might have some effect too? But no it must somehow always be the US's fault.

btw the crime rate was reported this week (by the fbi) to be at its lowest levels in over 30 years (for the USA), also we have the largest prison population we've ever had. I wonder if the two have something to do with each other.

Lets see lock bad people up, crime goes down, release all your bad people, crime goes up. Seems pretty clear. lesson over children.

later,
epic
edit: made a statement clearer.

 

[Legion]

Re: Interesting Blog about the rise of fundamentalism in Ira

Not that I don't agree with the sentiment but that was never the reason why the UN was created AFAIK. UN was created to help keep the peace between nations, not depose of evil dictators in various countries or promote democracy in the world.

And whiping out evil dictators is not achieving this? Where was the UN in Kosovo, Rwanda, etc where evil dictators were doing anything but keep the peace.

Would the UN have attacked hitler?

Assigning attributes to the UN that it doesn't have may be an effective way of bashing the UN for not living up to (yet) another one of its reason for existing but not very honest IMO. Which in turn peaks my curiosity; From where did you get this information?

If the UN is to keep peace we ought to assume they should do something about those who stand against peace. How is one achieving peace by allowing dictators to kill innocent people? Why has the UN been in support of the USA's past endeavors to whipe these individuals out?

 

[Legion]

Re: Interesting Blog about the rise of fundamentalism in Ira

Well, so wish I. Though for instance in Iraq I think it would be easier if the US didn't want to dictate everything.

The US shouldn't have to. If the US didn't who would have? Nothing would have been done.

Basically, the EU and many others were very willing to provide help and support in many areas after the war, but the US more or less wanted to run it alone, with less than impressive results.

Not that the EU forces are required. We rarely get much out of europe to even consider note worthy.

 

[Natoma]

Re: how soon we forget,

how soon we forget.... Anyone remember saddam releasing almost every single prisoner from the jails? Come on dont you think that might have some effect too? But no it must somehow always be the US's fault.

btw the crime rate was reported this week (by the fbi) to be at its lowest levels in over 30 years (for the USA), also we have the largest prison population we've ever had. I wonder if the two have something to do with each other.

Lets see lock bad people up, crime goes down, release all your bad people, crime goes up. Seems pretty clear. lesson over children.

later,
epic
edit: made a statement clearer.

Not necessarily true. Look at the figures having to do with economic prosperity. Those at or near the poverty level were many times more likely to have experienced a violent crime or committed one than those more well off.

Locking "bad people" up most certainly had an effect. However, the relatively sustained economic boom of the past 23 years which has raised the living standard significantly in this country probably has more to do with it.

 

[Saem]

I don't think it was made clear, the UN keeps peace between nations, not within them. They respect the sovreignty of a nation and at most urge them to change their ways.

 

[Silent_One]

It's ironic that the US seems keen on curbing Islamic fundamentalism, yet their campaign in Iraq seems to have been a big catalyst for it (despite Iraq being one of the most 'liberal' nations in the middle east there prior to the war).

Well there's more to it than fundamentalism thats going on. In the Op-Ed section of the Sunday NYT Thomas Friedman has the following to say:

Fighting 'The Big One'
By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN
August 24, 2003
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/08/24/opinion/24FRIE.html

<snip>...I have no doubt that the U.S. presence in Iraq is attracting all sorts of terrorists and Islamists to oppose the U.S. I also have no doubt that politicians and intellectuals in the nearby Arab states are rooting against America in Iraq because they want Arabs and the world to believe that the corrupt autocracies that have so long dominated Arab life, and failed to deliver for their people, are the best anyone can hope for.

But I totally disagree that this is a sign that everything is going wrong in Iraq. The truth is exactly the opposite.

We are attracting all these opponents to Iraq because they understand this war is The Big One. They don't believe their own propaganda. They know this is not a war for oil. They know this is a war over ideas and values and governance. They know this war is about Western powers, helped by the U.N., coming into the heart of their world to promote more decent, open, tolerant, women-friendly, pluralistic governments by starting with Iraq — a country that contains all the main strands of the region: Shiites, Sunnis and Kurds.

You'd think from listening to America's European and Arab critics that we'd upset some bucolic native culture and natural harmony in Iraq, as if the Baath Party were some colorful local tribe out of National Geographic. Alas, our opponents in Iraq, and their fellow travelers, know otherwise. They know they represent various forms of clan and gang rule, and various forms of religious and secular totalitarianism — from Talibanism to Baathism. And they know that they need external enemies to thrive and justify imposing their demented visions.

In short, America's opponents know just what's at stake in the postwar struggle for Iraq, which is why they flock there: beat America's ideas in Iraq and you beat them out of the whole region; lose to America there, lose everywhere......

Also of intrest was the front page leading article on Iraq "Chaos and Calm Are 2 Realities for U.S. in Iraq". Based on this article there is alot of good also happening in Iraq that we don't hear much of.
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/08/24/international/worldspecial/24REBU.html

IWANIYA, Iraq, Aug. 19 — As the area around Baghdad endured a week of repeated violence, a happier scene unfolded in this city, a two-hour drive to the south.

American soldiers, without helmets or flak jackets, attended graduation ceremonies of the Diwaniya University Medical School. At ease with the Iraqi students and their parents, the American marines laughed, joked and posed in photographs. One by one, the students walked up to thank them, for Marine doctors had taught classes in surgery and gynecology and helped draw up the final exams.

"We like the Americans very much here," said Zainab Khaledy, 22, who received her medical degree last Sunday. "We feel better than under the old regime. We have problems, like security, but everything is getting better."

Such is the dual reality that is coming to define the American enterprise in Iraq, a country increasingly divided between those willing to put up with the American occupation and those determined to fight it. While the areas stretching west and north from Baghdad roil and burn, much of the rest of the country remains, most of the time, remarkably calm.

 

[Fred]

With regards to crime rate going down, I'd venture a guess it has something to do with certain controversial laws like the 3 strike system.

Ask any cop, they'll tell you the people they bust are typically the same ones over and over again. During the 70s and early 80s, felons were often released on technicalities, and defense lawyers prospered. Laws were changed and I believe that helped to lower the crime rate significantly.

 

[zurich]

Silent_One,

That sounds more like a plea to the American people to support this war, as ' it'll be the last one! PROMISE!'

 

[Silent_One]

That sounds more like a plea to the American people to support this war, as ' it'll be the last one! PROMISE!'

Did you read the articles? (you have to register at the Times to read them). If you did you would see that there's much I did not post. Not all of what the US is doing does Thomas Friedman agree with, so he's no cheerleader. The front page article of the Times is not all that sweet either so I don't know how you can say"...sounds more like a plea to the American people to support this war..."

 

[Moffell]

Re: Interesting Blog about the rise of fundamentalism in Ira

And whiping out evil dictators is not achieving this? Where was the UN in Kosovo, Rwanda, etc where evil dictators were doing anything but keep the peace.

Would the UN have attacked hitler?

Oh dear me. Peace between nations was the goal of the UN, you need to remember that. What you are suggesting would be a UN with vast powers inflicting on nations sovereignity. This does in fact not exist. If you want to argue that the UN is worthless then do so but don't do it using false reasons in your arguments.

As for Hitler how would I know? The UN does what its members decides for it to do. Quite simple really. The UN did authorize an attack on Saddam though in the Gulf war when he attacked Kuwait so its possible the security council would have come to a similar decision when Hitler invaded Poland.

If the UN is to keep peace we ought to assume they should do something about those who stand against peace. How is one achieving peace by allowing dictators to kill innocent people? Why has the UN been in support of the USA's past endeavors to whipe these individuals out?

Agreed, however one important point.

Dictatorships may not be very nice places to live in but that doesn't mean they will be aggresive against other countries. Hence dictarships is not a threat against the peace per se. (IE killing OTHER nations innocent people)

We don't have to like it of course but seeing as the UN was made/designed to keep the peace between nations and not get involved in sovereign nations businesses that's something you have to accept. Lets face it, a UN that could decide to attack a nation just because the leadership doesn't suit them would in fact be undermining it's own reason for existance, keeping the peace (between nations).

If you want a UN that has the right to go prodding around like that call your congressman and have him bring up a suggestion of a reform of the UN more to your liking or in this case more to your reason for bashing.

 

[Willmeister]

It's ironic that the US seems keen on curbing Islamic fundamentalism, yet their campaign in Iraq seems to have been a big catalyst for it (despite Iraq being one of the most 'liberal' nations in the middle east there prior to the war).

But that was simply because Hussein virtually outlawed religon. Now the observant in Iraq are now able to see the light of day without fear of retribution, it's unsurprising that things will be taken too far. This has happened everywhere really. The Shah of Iran did similar things. Supporters of Ataturk did the same in Turkey. The Congress party worked to stamp out religon in India because they viewed it as devisive. It's not surprising that people who use religion as a backbone of identity resent having their identity under attack.

Question is, will those who are pushing religon as an instrument of power be brought under control of the broader population? That's the $64,000 question for me right now.