id and Epic went multiplatform because of piracy on the PC

Discussion in 'PC Gaming' started by Farid, Mar 11, 2007.

  1. Nappe1

    Nappe1 lp0 On Fire!
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    ah... GOTCHA! :p

    I knew someone would fallen good old big font trick. ;)
    anyways, It just depens what you play... for some my friends, PC has been dead as a platform about a year already.

    It's just like in 16bit days... people are feeling that they get more with same money on console platforms, so they are switching to them; In early 90's people were feeling that they got more value for the money in PC platform than in Amiga / Atari ST. back then, the standing still R&D of Amiga did have effect to this, but nowadays PC pricing has caused same kind of effect. PC gaming hardware expenses are wayyy more high and PC hardware is having a lot more compability issues than any of the consoles available.

    EDIT: and no, the death is not immiment. it wasn't in Amiga side either. (heck, C64 gets some seriously good games nowadays, though the commericial potential is missing, but this is another story.) It's still happening. Step by Step. How long the total destruction takes, is dependable many things, but right now there's nothing indicating change in direction. players complain more about games that are made for consoles and mediocrely ported to PC and more and more dev houses moving to platforms where the money is made.

    And notice that I am not stating anywhere it would be just the piracy. There's many things causing this, but claiming piracy would not be one of those, is just wrong. (Other reasons include claiming PC hardware prices (especially High End Graphics) and the fact that once the openess of PC is starting to show it's nasty side. compability issues in games are quite big, compared what it was 10-15 years ago. Just support for PC side can be easily seen as much more expensive to keep on running than consoles. (if game does not work, the disc is faulty or the console is faulty. Not the drivers are wrong or windows servicepack missing or faulty installation of directx or bios incompability with graphics adapter or... you name it.)

    IF the evolution goes far enough, in the end only small dev houses keep making lackcluster games (compared to commericial level) for small group of ppl still claiming it's not happening, just like some ppl tried to prove AMiga still being good gaming platform almost 10 years after demise of Commodore International.
     
    #41 Nappe1, Mar 13, 2007
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2007
  2. Geo

    Geo Mostly Harmless
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    Successful parasites do not kill their host. I think it's not clear yet whether the warez crowd are a successful parasite or not, re PC gaming.

    Tho I'd agree it's easier to think that way in the first two years of a new console generation than it will be a bit further down the road, particularly for the big AAA title-makers.
     
  3. Bouncing Zabaglione Bros.

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    Yes, but it always goes in cycles. Right now the consoles are ahead, but it will swing back soon again. It always does. Obviously you can be biased one way or another because the games you like may be more prevalent on one platform than the other, but you only have to look at the regular lists of games for 2007, 2008, etc to see there's still going to be a lot of games to play on the PC. Just because a lot of developers are now maximising their output by going multiplatform, doesn't mean PC gaming is going to die at at time when more people have PCs than ever before.

    I'd say if anything has been hurt it's been PC game retail. They've given over their shelf space to the higher profit console games, while a lot of PC gamers can either get their games cheaper as a direct download, or cheaper from the discount e-tailers like Play or Amazon.
     
  4. cthellis42

    cthellis42 Hoopy Frood
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    My functional Atari 800, 130XE, 1040ST, and Mega ST4 insult your Amiga 1500 as being a piker. :razz:
     
  5. Nappe1

    Nappe1 lp0 On Fire!
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    my list comes here... (admit, it's more or less single manufacturer biased.)
    - 2 x Commodore 64
    - 1 x Commodore 64C
    - 3 x 1541 Floppy Disk Drive
    - 1 x 1541-II Floppy Disk Drive
    - Other stuff for 64: MultimediaCard/SD Card reader for C64, 4x joysticks, 2x1531 Datasette unit, Action Replay IV, 2 x Videoport to composite + mono audio cables, X1541 cable, 4-player adapter to userport aaand quite big stack of DD floppies.

    - Amiga 500 with Extra 512KB Fast.
     
  6. Rainbow Man

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    "''E fuckin' snuffed it!"

    Still.. I think it's still breathing. For a while longer at least humorous analogies or not! :cool:

    I don't condone piracy at all. Frankly I don't think I've pirated a single game in at least ten years. Well unless you count those 3000something MAME ROMs I have collecting dust somewhere on my harddrive but I don't think many game devs are made unemployed because of that..

    However even wiht piracy being as bad as some of thee people say new games are made and published. And some of them sell well enough to warrant expansions and everything. DoW: Dark Crusade came out ages adfter the original game was launched for example.

    Evebn a fairly obscure title like Sacred is getting a sequel - or so I heard.

    And Duke4E is still being developed! :cool:
    Peace.
     
  7. Davros

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    Q: How many Amiga users does it take to change a light bulb ?

    A: None - It doesnt need changeing, theres nothing wrong with the light bulb, and anyway theres a new light bulb comming thats much better than the P.C and it will be out at christmas, or next christmas, or the christmas after, waffle, waffle, waffle
     
    #47 Davros, Mar 13, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 13, 2007
  8. Bouncing Zabaglione Bros.

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    I think the truth is that good games sell, and bad ones don't. The days when publishers could foist any old crap onto us are coming to an end. The word of mouth that gets around on the internet insures that publishers can't screw us over like they used to with poor quality products. The HL2, UTs, Far Cry's still sell. Heck, if we haven't seen a demo, read half a dozen reviews and seen the opinions of a dozen gamers who ponied up to be early adopters, we're already suspicious the publisher pushed it out the door in an unfinished state.

    I wonder if the enforced quality levels on the consoles, and the active pre-owned market have something to do with people being willing to pay more for console games, and the increase in the shelf space in retail stores? Not only do console owners already have a form of quality assurance in place that PC owners don't (and that publishers and devs still exploit), the consolers also have a guaranteed way of rebating any purchase into a discount on their next game.

    In turn the retailer gives preference to console games, because it's almost money for nothing - sell the same product over and over, making profit each time.
     
  9. ANova

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    The PC games industry is and always has been a niche market compared to consoles simply because of the reasons BZB just outlined in addition to the constant hastle and expensive nature associated with it due to its ever evolving state.

    If anything I would say it has probably grown in the last decade due to the populations (particularly the young) ever increasing computer and tech saviness.
     
  10. Richteralan

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    Eyes of the Beholder:smile:
    3 floppy disks and 2 books of manual. You have to enter a word when you going down a dungeon level.

    back to topic, why they are complaining is beyond logic. There are plenty of pc games that are mostly online and requires a valid cd-key to play online. And also the general quality of pc games are on a decline these few years(of course with exceptions).
     
  11. Reverend

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    This statement (basically as per the Shack news report) sounds like the primary reason.

    That's not only bullshitt but sounds nothing more than like a press release denouncing PC piracy.

    IMO, id and Epic simply would be stupid to continue to ignore the money in the console market, especially with the current gen consoles (PS3, 360) being so much more similar to the PC in terms of programming.

    Mutliplaforming by id and Epic has almost nothing to do with piracy on the PC platform.

    IMO, of course.
     
  12. Dresden

    Dresden Celebrating Mediocrity
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    How about the heightened sales in the console area? All one of id's employees had to do was walk into an EB and try to actually FIND the pc section amongst the sea of console garbage. And how does a software developer, especially one the size of id, in 2007 have this epiphany? Piracy has been around since the dawn of computers. It's like saying "I'm going to stick to walking from now on because I was just informed cars are prone to having accidents." The saddest part of this entire debacle is the realization that very few companies nowadays are pc specific. The money outweighs the fan followings. Hearing this just caters to whiney console fanboys complaining about what they CAN'T have on their consoles. Like a fat child whining for candy only to receive it time and time again. And is id out of it's mind? Do they think upon reverting to a company that makes multiplatform games, they'll then nixx out the element of piracy? Piracy exists on ALL fronts. It's just as easy to pirate a console game as it is a pc game.
     
    #52 Dresden, Mar 13, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 13, 2007
  13. MrGaribaldi

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    Now that's funny... Would you please point out what GalCiv2 uses for copy protection?*

    It's interesting to note that no-one has touched upon how copy protection is actually fuelling piracy, at times making legit owners download cracks to be able to play... Most people I know will avoid any game that comes "protected" with StarForce! The more draconic measures being imposed the more people will shy away, since it makes it harder to use a legit copy. That hassle is something you don't have on the console (yet)...

    For a short, interesting, view from a gamedev, take a look here. Now that is a dev who get what it's all about!

    As for consoles being cheaper than an up to date pc, it's true for now. But look at the price for the PS3, that is not what I would call cheap! And if you factor in the price of the games, it's not excactly getting cheaper. If you consume a fair amount of games, and can get them on the pc for half the price, it's going to make a difference!
    And what do you bet me that once the console market reaches critical mass, so will mass piracy become a much more widespread problem than it is today? Travelling in Asia today it's not exactly hard to find pirated software for any platform, with the new console games taking over more and more of the "shelf space" as they've done in game stores... Let that continue for a few years, and maybe we'll have Epic saying they'll be going pc only due to the rampant piracy on the console scene.. At least on the pc they can continuously update the game for legit users...


    *Yes, of course that is only one game out of many, but the fact that it sold so well has made other developers/publishers sit up an take notice judging from various comments...
     
    #53 MrGaribaldi, Mar 13, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 13, 2007
  14. Davros

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    funnily enough I own a few starforce protected games
    and the only reason I bought them was because some parrot owning eye-patch wearers released cracks to remove the protection....
     
  15. DuckThor Evil

    DuckThor Evil Anas platyrhynchos
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    Well in all fairness the launch price of a console doesn't usually stick very long, so the price will come down. Also atleast for now you can easily sell your used console game for a good price, if one is not a collector that evens up the difference. There are PC games that you basically can't sell, mainly the ones that are digitally distributed, still the price is often as high as normal PC-game. I think that PS3 might be just a little bit over engineered, and I don't think consoles in the future will be as expensive as it, when inflation is accounted to the numbers.

    Well certainly the amount of pirated copies would increase, but I'd think the advantages of larger installed base would outweight the cons, and I feel the average console owner is less likely to modify his console to use pirated software than a PC user due to lower technical knowledge etc.

    I don't think the piracy in Asia will make much difference in these decisions as like you said piracy is rampart there on all platforms, and likely to remain so. It was already said in this thread that piracy is not the only reason consoles are getting more games than before. It's about making more money in bigger total market. Piracy might be one reason, but it's also easier to say that "we are doing this because of piracy" than saying "we do it because that way we get more money"

    Console games do get updated over the internet nowadays too, and the console manufacturers probably work their asses off to recognize pirated software/modified machines to ban users that pirate software.

    Imo things will probably stay like they are today, meaning that consoles will have more games than PC, but the PC-market will naturally remain large enough to warrant publishers to release titles on it. The thing is that if many publishers abandon the PC-market, it means that there is more meat for the remaining publishers. That means it's easier to make money there, and that will lure the escapees back. This will probably be accelerated when due to constant upgradation the inevitable techological supremacy of PC-tech will make its games feel more appealing. Crysis is already showing some of that, but imo it will take around two years before this goes to full effect.
     
    #55 DuckThor Evil, Mar 13, 2007
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  16. swaaye

    swaaye Entirely Suboptimal
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    I can't believe anyone could rip on PC gaming from the late '80s/early '90s. It most certainly did not suck. The market was vastly different than today. Game ideas were flowing from every direction. Some crazy people were coming up with some incredible game ideas. Most of the game genres that you play today were invented back then.

    I think we've actually lost more than we've gained because of massively escalating game costs. PC game prices have actually dropped compared to back then, I think. So, if a game doesn't sell a zillion copies today, it will never make back its dev costs. And if a game can't compete with the AAA titles in production values/gfx, it's like being on page 2 of Google results. You don't sell. There can't really be teams of 5 people whipping up their hearts' desires anymore because of that. Economies of scale.

    As for the move to consoles? It's because the money is there. The console market is exploding for one reason or another. Companies go after money, not warm fuzzy feelings. I go after what I want to play. If UT3 is castrated because of this, they won't get my dime. I still prefer the original UT over their newer "big armor macho guy" efforts, anyway.

    And as for id, if they can make a decent game again, well cool. Otherwise bye bye. Heh.
     
  17. ZoinKs!

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    Are there really people who honestly believe piracy isn't a problem?

    You keep mentioning that gaming on those grand old systems wasn't killed by piracy. But it was. I remember because I was there.

    There was a time when several hundred thousand Atari ST's were still in use, but the games market for them dried up. The market was big enough to support the games but companies stopped making them because too many people stopped paying for them because they could get the games for free.

    Piracy helped push Atari ST gaming to an early grave.
     
  18. Bouncing Zabaglione Bros.

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    I was there too, and it was actually little things like Commodore going bankrupt that killed the platform.

    Developers went to the PC, and was piracy any less there? No, but there was a much larger installed base, and people were kitting out their PCs for gaming because of games like Wing Commander and Wolfenstein. Developers went to the PC because that's where they could make more money, and because the old 16 bit machines were no longer being sold.

    The game industry outlived the Amiga/Atari and moved on, just as they did with the Spectrum and C64 before it. They didn't kill the platform, declining hardware sales in the face of newer, better hardware did that.
     
  19. ZoinKs!

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    I figured that was a point you'd make. The point I'm making, about which I was perhaps too subtle, is that piracy caused an early death for gaming on those platforms. Eventually, the business would've all moved to the pc but the process was accelerated by widespread piracy.

    When it makes more financial sense to invest your developing efforts somewhere else, they will invest developing efforts somewhere else. When people pirate games instead of buying them, it makes less financial sense to develop for that platform. Are these concepts really so difficult to accept? Because it all looks like common sense to me.
     
  20. Bouncing Zabaglione Bros.

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    I figured that was a point you'd make. The point I'm making, about which I was perhaps to subtle, is that piracy played a small part. There's no way to tell if companies left old platforms because they were not making as much money, or because they saw bigger fish to fry on the newer platforms, or because those companies that built the machines went our of business.

    What looks like common sense is that companies look at all emerging platforms. The see a bigger cake, or they see a second cake on top of the one they already have. Did the PS1 or Xbox cause the death of PC gaming? Did the PS2? No, companies just diversified into new platforms, and new companies came in to supply the new platforms and existing ones. Are these concepts really so difficult to accept? Because it all looks like common sense to me.
     
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