I was pondering....

[ByteMe]

I hate this idea but it is something I am thinking about.

Can humans (the entire planet) advance without war?


I would like to think that humans would do better without there ever being another war. But then I think about it, it seems mankind really only advances because of war or the threat of war. There have been small advances outside of war, but those were minor and mostly because of a threat from another source (i.e. mother nature).

This almost makes me sick. I hate the idea that people human beings are stuck with fighting all the time for advancement.

Any other ideas?

 

[London Geezer]

I hate this idea but it is something I am thinking about.

Can humans (the entire planet) advance without war?


I would like to think that humans would do better without there ever being another war. But then I think about it, it seems mankind really only advances because of war or the threat of war. There have been small advances outside of war, but those were minor and mostly because of a threat from another source (i.e. mother nature).

This almost makes me sick. I hate the idea that people human beings are stuck with fighting all the time for advancement.

Any other ideas?

Seen your recents posts, i'm not surprised at all the world is full of wars...

War isn't "needed" to progress. It would just be stupid to think so. However it can be said that humans do learn (well, usually) from their mistakes, therefore it would be safe to say that somehow, human nature progresses in the light of terrible wars. But that is an afterthought. Look at how united Europe has been since WW2. Things are going downhill now, i agree, and it can be said that Europe is not united at all.

It's like a rubber band, you pull it you pull it and at one point it reaches critical point, at which point it goes back to a stable position.

The sad thing is that it seems large masses of people have very little long-term vision, therefore "shake-ups" are needed sometimes in order to put us in our place so to speak... Sadly War is a way of doing it.

This is a nice subject to discuss, nice input ByteMe

 

[pcchen]

Many ancient China inventions have nothing to do with war.
The Great Pyramid is not a result of war, nor threat of war.

Actually, contrary to popular belief, many inventions are not a result of anything. The inventor just did that for fun, or curiosity. Then the inventor or someone else found a use for that invention. If they couldn't find a use for it, it died out. For example, Mayans did invent wheels, but they didn't have place for it (too many mountains, no big animals). They used wheels on toys, not vehicles.

War and threat of war can help advance of some inventions, but they rarely are the main reasons behind important inventions.

 

[London Geezer]

Inventions in themselves, no. Human progression as in society, sadly, yes IMO.

The Pyramids, the mithology surrounding the Pharaons and Egypt was tied very much with their successes in war. At their peak Egypt was an extremely powerful country, and they got there through war.

Sadly i believe that it is in Human nature to "shoot then ask questions later". In this case, wars are fought, then Human nature learns from its mistakes, as can be seen in both World Wars and pretty much every war really.

But that was the past, nowadays things have changed, wars are not fought like they used to be. In the 21st century, and especially after WW2, enough progression has been made in every possible area of knowledge, especially Economics and Technology, and it seems war is now seen as something completely useless (with some sad exceptions, see Iraq etc).

 

[ByteMe]

Seen your recents posts, i'm not surprised at all the world is full of wars...

You want to fight because someone has a different opinion?

War isn't "needed" to progress. It would just be stupid to think so. However it can be said that humans do learn (well, usually) from their mistakes, therefore it would be safe to say that somehow, human nature progresses in the light of terrible wars. But that is an afterthought. Look at how united Europe has been since WW2. Things are going downhill now, i agree, and it can be said that Europe is not united at all.

I don't think it is stupid to think so. Look how many inventions and then progress has happened because of wars. And I don't think Europe is a good example. Since WWII europe has had to be somewhat calm because they are not the most powerful anymore.

It's like a rubber band, you pull it you pull it and at one point it reaches critical point, at which point it goes back to a stable position.

The sad thing is that it seems large masses of people have very little long-term vision, therefore "shake-ups" are needed sometimes in order to put us in our place so to speak... Sadly War is a way of doing it.

This is a nice subject to discuss, nice input ByteMe

After china turns, I expect there will be little room for non-democracies. I wonder where mankind will get the inspiration for advancement (this is many years into the future).

 

[Clashman]

War has existed at all times and in all places, regardless of whether or not "progress" takes place. There simply happens to be a general trend of economic development that has been in effect for the last 500 years or so, and we've had wars since then. In many cases, (if not the vast majority)war has been the cause of setbacks and not of progress.

How was progress aided by the burning libraries at Alexandria, the sacking of Rome, of Carthage, of Constantinople, etc? War sure didn't seem to help Bosnia or Rwanda or the Congo. The only thing war seems universally "good" at is finding out how to kill ourselves faster than ever before. And I for one don't look at that as progress.

 

[Clashman]

To add to what I said earlier, given the amount of money we've spent so far on Iraq, (I believe it is somewhere on the order of 100 billion dollars), we could have put a base on the moon, we could have hired a million more teachers, put millions of kids through college, provided healthcare for nearly all who lack it, converted a good chunck of the country's power grid to renewable energy, built high speed trains, etc, etc, etc. Instead, we have one thug removed, thousands of people killed, a country that has been practically crippled by violence, and years more of the same to come.

 

[ByteMe]

To add to what I said earlier, given the amount of money we've spent so far on Iraq, (I believe it is somewhere on the order of 100 billion dollars), we could have put a base on the moon, we could have hired a million more teachers, put millions of kids through college, provided healthcare for nearly all who lack it, converted a good chunck of the country's power grid to renewable energy, built high speed trains, etc, etc, etc. Instead, we have one thug removed, thousands of people killed, a country that has been practically crippled by violence, and years more of the same to come.

We gave 25 million people the chance of freedom (directly). And then indirectly we gave the chance for more.

 

[Clashman]

Their people would probably be free by now anyways had we not propped up their dictators in the first place and then decimated them through years of war and sanctions.

Edit: They sure as hell would be enjoying a higher standard of living.

 

[ByteMe]

Their people would probably be free by now anyways had we not propped up their dictators in the first place and then decimated them through years of war and sanctions.

Fine, then Iran in it's terrorist heyday would control the middle east.

 

[Clashman]

Do you mean the Ayatollah or the U.S.-installed Shah?

 

[MfA]

Maybe you are looking at it from the wrong angle, maybe war isnt so much necessary ... as much as government interventionism and central guidance of research.

 

[RussSchultz]

Maybe you are looking at it from the wrong angle, maybe war isnt so much necessary ... as much as government interventionism and central guidance of research.

I'd vote more for "necessity" being why war seems to promote invention.

 

[ByteMe]

Maybe you are looking at it from the wrong angle, maybe war isnt so much necessary ... as much as government interventionism and central guidance of research.

I think this is wishfull thinking. In my limitied experience the government screws up 95%+ of anything they are involved in.

 

[Clashman]

I think this is wishfull thinking. In my limitied experience the government screws up 95%+ of anything they are involved in.

And yet you still seem to support the U.S. government unwaveringly.

 

[ByteMe]

I think this is wishfull thinking. In my limitied experience the government screws up 95%+ of anything they are involved in.

And yet you still seem to support the U.S. government unwaveringly.

Nope, there are many times the government has the right idea... they just screw up the implementation. You can argue the Saddam/Bin Laden is an example of this. I think they should of got them both long before now. The problem is that I am not there and don't see everything that they do. So what looks like a screw-up on the surface might not be.

 

[MfA]

I think it is wishfull thinking that they are entirely unrelated ... I dont think the free market could have provided the atom bomb on time.

 

[zurich]

Hey, the war in Vietnam brought us superglue

 

[RussSchultz]

I think it is wishfull thinking that they are entirely unrelated ... I dont think the free market could have provided the atom bomb on time.

The free market wouldn't have built the atom bomb because its not related to porn.

 

[PC-Engine]

War is just the police/criminal principle just several orders of magnitude larger. It will always exist. Look at nature, there will always be predators when there are prey.