How to sell a next-gen console - price point and marketing *spawn

Discussion in 'Console Industry' started by steveOrino, Jul 11, 2018.

  1. iroboto

    iroboto Daft Funk
    Legend Regular Subscriber

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2014
    Messages:
    7,715
    Likes Received:
    6,006
    Given enough time sure, anything is inevitable. But no. The tablets in 2020 will not be able to. If people are going “nuts” over TLOU2 now. Are you telling me you expect to see that level of graphics on a tablet ?
     
    BRiT likes this.
  2. iroboto

    iroboto Daft Funk
    Legend Regular Subscriber

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2014
    Messages:
    7,715
    Likes Received:
    6,006
    Moore’s law stopped @ 28nm. A long time ago. It’s about he doubling of power at the same cost. It’s not just about the doubling of power every 2 years. It’s 2 years at the same cost.

    We can continue to push double the power and smaller nodes. But the price keeps going up. IphoneX is already near $1500 CAD. Can you guess the cost of the next iPhone? Market estimates are closing in at $2000 CAD. Same price as their laptops.
     
  3. goonergaz

    Veteran

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2005
    Messages:
    3,073
    Likes Received:
    731
    I shouldn't have said Moores law specifically, I just meant that something else inevitably comes along and overcomes the boundaries...that's all.
     
  4. DSoup

    DSoup meh
    Legend Veteran Subscriber

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2007
    Messages:
    10,853
    Likes Received:
    5,655
    Location:
    London, UK
    In a narrow performance envelope that is unlikely to improve without breakthroughs in both thermal management and battery capacity. Once you untether from the AC and limit yourself to thin, you're heavily restricted in performance.
     
    BRiT likes this.
  5. Shifty Geezer

    Shifty Geezer uber-Troll!
    Moderator Legend

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2004
    Messages:
    40,509
    Likes Received:
    10,882
    Location:
    Under my bridge
    You'd think Switch would illustrate that to a degree. Okay, it's not bleeding edge tech, but it's still a high performance mobile part and it's running well below current gen. There's a few generations on from Switch to PS4 in a handheld and that's only if it's possible. The same constraints apply that you can't just slap a bigger SOC in there to get more power, so mobile will be as dependent on node shrinks and their timelines as all other procesors are.
     
  6. zed

    zed
    Veteran

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2005
    Messages:
    4,400
    Likes Received:
    606
    I do agree with what you're saying somewhat overall but if you look at CPU's its obvious mobile has been increasing way faster
    look at the last few generations of apple CPU's they seem to be about 50% quicker with each model
    contrast that with intel CPU's the last few generations have been what 5-10% quicker with each model

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
    #46 zed, Jul 13, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2018
  7. borntosoul

    Regular Newcomer

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2002
    Messages:
    272
    Likes Received:
    34
    Location:
    Au
    I’m pretty crap with my evidence ☹️.

    I’m a little time poor and more lazy these days.

    Anand normaly has some good write ups on mobile tech.
    I believe both Sony and ms will be looking at the next big thing, out of the box thinkers-a point of difference, and lve been swinging on this.........first it was keep it simple and efficient (ps4 like)and the machine will be great , now I’m like what radical idea will move the goal posts? what will it be to take us somewhere else?
     
  8. DSoup

    DSoup meh
    Legend Veteran Subscriber

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2007
    Messages:
    10,853
    Likes Received:
    5,655
    Location:
    London, UK
    Yup, and Switch is not thin and has active cooling and a bloody great vent on top. Switch is 13.9mm deep, more than double the 10" iPad Pro (6.1mm) and considerably chunkier than iPhone X (7.7mm) and iPhone 8 (7.3mm) - all passively cooled. You can go thin thinner with better technology and materials and there are many interesting in-between possibilities but nonetheless, you're imposing some fairly strict limitations on you when mandate performance off of a battery and require decent mobility.

    Just look at the ire Apple has drawn because they design iDevices to down clock, sometimes significantly reducing performance, to accommodate deteriorating battery conditions that can begin to manifest with high usage devices from 18 months out.

    Part of the reason for that is that technology for mobile devices was never particularly well developed. For many decades everybody was focussing on making desktop CPUs more powerful because desktops vastly outnumbered laptops and mobile silicon was largely a variant of desktop silicon with stuff removed to make is smaller.

    As the desktop:laptop/mobile market gradually flip-flopped R&D shifted to focussing more and more on power efficiency and thermal management rather than performance at any cost. All of which has benefited mobile devices more than the traditional performance market, which is largely insignificant. Those Apple graphs showing relative improvements in iDevice performance illustrate a rubber band effect on mobile technology, from the start where it had been drawn back with lack of focus for decades and hugely falling behind desktops, then the band being released and twanging the other way at tremendous speed.
     
    #48 DSoup, Jul 14, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2018
    BRiT likes this.
  9. borntosoul

    Regular Newcomer

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2002
    Messages:
    272
    Likes Received:
    34
    Location:
    Au
    Very well said, great post.

    Design..... make it innovative and look cool.
    Invent......new ways of playing and interacting.
    Market.....Explain it and hype it and show mind blowing game demoes.
    Sell.....then get the price you need. 10 year investment in hardware.
     
  10. liolio

    liolio Aquoiboniste
    Legend

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2005
    Messages:
    5,723
    Likes Received:
    193
    Location:
    Stateless
    In my opinion MSFT should exit the home consle business and working on normalizing the Windows gaming experience over a broad range of PC hardware. I could almost say normalizing the windows experience at this point.
    The new interface (old metro) mostly failed, there is no point in universal app THOUGH they need a multi-desktop that adapt much better to resolution and the size of the display. They need to make navigable through touch, KB/M and Pad. They need to support widget.
    They need to decide to which extend they are "open" and in many ways: the type of apps they allow to run on the personal edition and the sources/marketplace they allow.
    For example they should allow Steam and some others to sell old/legacy "apps/games"but anything new should not be able to run on their OS.

    Once they made their decision they have to be adamant about it. It takes time for the people to adapt I speak couple year of complains if not more.

    In my opinion it is MSFT interest to remain "relatively open". Their own market place is not a success contrary to some of their websites/online services. They should kill it altogether and divert the development toward edge, which among othersthing could become the de facto market place for their own software, extension and web service (no need to cortana, and whatever other program populatin your hdd... and making the Windows experience more complicated than it needs to).
    Meanwhile Google has proven unwilling to cooperate with them, I would expect the same from Apple. So to the point they should include the necessary virtualization software to run Android. They should do it in-house with a launcher/interface appropriate for the intended use (so it lends smoothly into the WIndows experience). They should keep it up to date (or to the version they see fit for their use).
    For the non critcial apps (mail, calendar,etc.) they should develop them for Android doing so allowig Android user to shift ultimately to completely MSFT backed environment (minus the market, one could use tout look, ther navigation and maps, bing/cortana .etc).
    As Google is not cooperating they forbid the use of others browser and double down on work on Edge which is a good basis. May that is where Windows should meet with the emulated /virtualized Android OS in a controlled manner. Would'nt it be funny to run a Browser inside a browser in fact displaying Chrome running on the virtualized Android system through Edge windows :runaway:).

    For the real programs and games they should autorise serious sources and provide services that make the experience smooth for users, especially version/update. So strict rule for the validated sources/marketplaces
    All the new program should run on X86 and ARM as the universal app, though they need to unify the experience/UI.
    One thing they should normalize is lowest common denominator for new game, making that virtual XBOX the basis experience for new game released. I would aim at pretty low territory trying to get as much laptops as possible, then the sky is the limit.

    So pretty much they shold cut their operating costs to the bare minimum:
    Succesful web services (msm, outlook, bing, cortana, etc.
    Keeping up to date an custom Android virtual box (displayed through Edge) (not a daunting task looking at their effort to accomplish BC on the XB1).
    Parallele to that is Edge development
    Validating serious market place.
    Unified UI navigable in many ways.
    As we are in console section, if they are doing first party they should sell them through the trusted vendors/market place which doesn't preclude the option of being exclusive to Windows. I believe they should not.
    Advertizement normalized and secure at the OS level. Say a market place go through the effort of offering XXX software from YYY "for free" or in exchange to advertizement that should be done through standardize means in control of MSFT (which may forbid to invasive ads, unsafe, etc.). You could have real free stuff as long as validated by a trusted vendor/marketplace.
    Centralized ownership: boud to microsoft account (and original dealer) you bought it somewhere you have it everywhere from any sources available (in case marketplace close for example). Going with that is standardized (and clean) installation (sorry Steam but there is a price to keep a OS open). One copy ad only one can be installed at a time for a user (checked at OS/account level).
    Enforce API for market place (blizzard, UBi, Steam, want their chat ok, but use a standard interoperable API, idem for dowload, instal update, UI). The experience is not "one" but share the same bone, say you have multiple clients open but they run o the same sub system limiting the impact, they can speak to one another too. UI aside you could go from Blizzard chat to UBi as easily as shifitng tab in a browser with the minimum possibe impact on perfs.
    Same with streaming/recording.

    The idea is to keep MSFT investments/developments costs LOW giving up on field they are de facto out of the game. They have the PRO to care about and they could cook something different more in line with the PRO need.

    Then there is dedicated hardware. Sorry console folks I believe that mini-PC or bigger than that should be let to company already in the business, that does not preclude partnerships (as the alienware Alpha /steam machine) ith or without financial investments.
    If they were to make something in house, I would have them focus on accessories and input which they are great at. I wait for their on the go controller/gamepad for example Why not a flat take on the steam controller + some foldable parts (thing thosetablets covers that fold into triangles, say you have somthing the size of a tiny book with 2 magnetic covers like shutter blinds protecting the inputs and fold into lateral triangles to help the grip... just an idea).
    If they are willing to meddled further with hardware I would say a portable system (gaming tablet, laptop or handheld my least favorite option thinking of a proper portable gamepad). They should try passing on custom hardware as hard as they can.

    At least that my POV looking at the relative madness that is MSFT take on gaming and how not unified their offering is when it needs actually few further efforts and removing quite some unnecessary stuffs for the intended targets. MAKE THE THING CLEAN
    so when I look into my new C: it does not lokk like the mess my old C: was...
    Then it is about believing in your product and navigating through virtual shit storm is easy: ignore the crap all together.
     
    #50 liolio, Aug 24, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2018
    vipa899 likes this.
  11. liolio

    liolio Aquoiboniste
    Legend

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2005
    Messages:
    5,723
    Likes Received:
    193
    Location:
    Stateless
    Damned I messed up editing my post.
     
  12. DieH@rd

    Legend Veteran

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2006
    Messages:
    6,082
    Likes Received:
    2,014
    I would like for some console manufacturer to say "300W is fine" during planning stage. :)
     
    BRiT and McHuj like this.
  13. liolio

    liolio Aquoiboniste
    Legend

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2005
    Messages:
    5,723
    Likes Received:
    193
    Location:
    Stateless
    I completely on the argumet for the ref tech progress have slown dow quite a bit. As for iPhone prices there is more than the tech. OK there is a global trend it seems that laptop, tablets or phonee have hit the bottom or even go up a little. iPhone is social thing, I still have people telling me what the iphone or don't but lot realze it does not do much than a cheap bu good android phone (cam quality aside) then you go into mid-end and higher Android phone.
    It is definitely real good shit with long standing support (a valid reason to buy older iphone) but at the core the new and newish models remains social markerts for lots of people. The price is somehow self justifying as it testify for one wealth and status as watches used o (and still do in the super high end range).
     
  14. Rootax

    Veteran Newcomer

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2006
    Messages:
    1,148
    Likes Received:
    570
    Location:
    France
    Flops aren't everything... Especialy when the big upgrade will be on the cpu side...
     
    vipa899 likes this.
  15. Shortbread

    Shortbread Island Hopper
    Veteran

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2013
    Messages:
    3,685
    Likes Received:
    1,804
    In theory I agree. PR wise, I don't.

    Microsoft can easily regain a foothold (as lead platform in sales) within America and parts of Europe just from the positive analytical articles (e.g., Digital Foundry, NXGamer, IGN, etc.) showing gaming performance deltas (i.e., framerates, resolution, etc.) in Xbox Next-Generation favor. Noise, especially social media noise, can have an impact in overall sales. If Microsoft launches a 10TF/16GB system (@$399) Vs. a 8TF/16GB PS5 (@$399), there is no way Sony can justify PS5 pricing with lower spec'd hardware. At $299 then that's a whole new PR ballgame in Sony's favor.
     
  16. chris1515

    Veteran Regular

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2005
    Messages:
    3,378
    Likes Received:
    2,002
    Location:
    Barcelona Spain

    Microsoft can regain leadership in US and UK not in continental Europe. The PS3 sold better than 360 with weaker multiplatform games with a difficult platform for developer, more expensive for a long time, much weaker network ecosystem and OS.

    The DICE summit conference of Sony about the PS3 failure was good and like Layden said the biggest misstep was the price.
     
    #56 chris1515, Feb 15, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2019
  17. Entropy

    Veteran

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2002
    Messages:
    3,051
    Likes Received:
    1,011
    The PR value of FLOPS is easily handled by tucking away a 4-bit ”intelligence engine” in a corner and then referring to its abundant TOPS. Those who are easily impressed by large numbers are unlikely to notice or care about the difference. It’s only ever used to justify ones preference and consumtion choices anyway.
     
    lefantome and vipa899 like this.
  18. Rootax

    Veteran Newcomer

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2006
    Messages:
    1,148
    Likes Received:
    570
    Location:
    France

    I agree, but what I meant was X can have less TF than Y, and still performing the same or better, we'll have to see how close ps5 and Xbox 1-x-2-orwhatever are from a hardware design pov...

    And, off topic, I've a ps4pro, and I guess will have a ps5 because of the exclusives, not because of the raw power (I've a pc too so to me MS have 0 exclusive I can't play elsewhere).
     
  19. Shortbread

    Shortbread Island Hopper
    Veteran

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2013
    Messages:
    3,685
    Likes Received:
    1,804
    Hopefully that tucked away 'intelligence engine' is far more foolproof than the PR turbo encabulator that assisted the Cell in PS3.:yep2::nope:
     
  20. chris1515

    Veteran Regular

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2005
    Messages:
    3,378
    Likes Received:
    2,002
    Location:
    Barcelona Spain
    Games first like me. If MS launch many single player AAA and AA games of high quality they can make me switch but the road is long and they need to make me forget PS exclusives. I don't have time for more than two consoles and the choice is between a Sony or an Xbox console and a Nintendo console to play with my son.
     
Loading...

Share This Page

  • About Us

    Beyond3D has been around for over a decade and prides itself on being the best place on the web for in-depth, technically-driven discussion and analysis of 3D graphics hardware. If you love pixels and transistors, you've come to the right place!

    Beyond3D is proudly published by GPU Tools Ltd.
Loading...