It's to compare console value to PC. That is, given a budget of £350/£430 (or US/EU prices) for a gaming platform (new as the only fair way to reckon prices accurately), what PC can be bought for that.
How do next-gen consoles stack up against PCs for VFM? *spawn
- Thread starter bkilian
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Exclusively PC until PS2/XBox launched, then 50/50 console gaming until the 360 launched, then it has been 90/10%.
I used to upgrade hardware every 10-12 months.
Cheers
I'm not sure about the 7970GE but the custom 670 I'm running is extremely quiet - basically silent at idle and a whisper at load. It certainly beats my original X360 (by a long way) and that's sitting 1 foot away from it without a TV cabinet between us which I don't think many consoles have to suffer. Cost wise though it didn't cost any higher than other GPU's in it's performance bracket. It's certainly possilble to build a very quiet PC without going for expensive custom solutions. Yes the X1 will likely be quieter but are we really attributing a value amount to "quieter than already whisper quiet" now? Because the same should probably be applied when comparing the X1 to the PS4 which will almost certainly be louder.
Sorry I don't know what this means :smile:
Fair point. That effectively cancels out the cost of a live subscription. It'll take at least 2 generations of APU beyond Kaveri before PC's can offer similar or greater performance at equal or lower power draw to the consoles I expect. Obviously performance/watt has always been a big advantage of consoles.
Yes it does. But we're also ignoring (rightly IMO) other value add aspects of each system. e.g. Kinect and the TV control features on X1, and the fact that a PC is a full computer/workstation as well as games machine. I see this thread as a comparison of the value of these two options as core gaming machines, and in that respect form factor is only as important as how you intend to use the machine. If you want a core gaming machine that will sit under your TV - consoles win the value proposition hands down. If you want one that will sit in a den or under a desk or some other alcove like space (as most PC gamers do) then the form factor is largely irrelevant. For me personally I have an alcove in the lounge that's perfect for a PC + desk + monitor while not encroaching on the living space at all. Therefore for me a smaller form factor offers no increased value whatsoever - similar to how a console gamer who say also has a laptop or a cheap desktop would take no additional value from full PC functionality in there console.
I wouldn't argue against this. From a pure hardware value perspectve at the console performance level the consoles are miles ahead. But there are value add features of a PC that are being ignored in such a comparison in favour of hardware features (e.g. form factor) which may not be of value to a PC gamer.
Yes we can argue that on a pure hardware level you are getting more for your money with a console. This is true. But then how much value do you attirubte to a modular hardware design that can be upgraded at will? This feature in itself adds value but to compare purely on the basis of "how much would you need to spend on these modular components to match every aspect of the fixed design consoles" ignores that value add feature.
Ok this I just flat out disagree with. I certainly find PC's and PC gaming perfectly straight forward. Pretty much every game these days auto downloads the latest patches and drivers can frankly be taken or left as long as you're within a year or two of the latest version. It's been a long time since I've had any kind of gameplay breaking technical issue for a game - even after loading Skyrim up with dozens of mods (another value add aspect of PC gaming which we're ignoring).
In terms of fiddling with settings, for me that's part of the fun - it's not difficult, but some may see it as a hassle while others see it as a value adding feature (being able to tune the framerate and image quality to your own personal preference as opposed to having it dicated to you by the developers) but certainly if your running a high end PC like those we're quoting here to compete with the new consoles then you can more or less set everything to maximum, sit back and enjoy. Owning a 7970GE I know you know what I mean
Indeed but the PC games after a similar period are generally cheaper still. And of course you have the gazillions of free games available via PC. Obviously they are a major player these days.
I'd have to disagree here. I'm a PC only gamer but have little interest in strategy games and zero interest in MMO's. I'm still totally incapable of keeping up with the games I want to play. For example I'm currently playing or have recently played, Dirt 3, Max Payne 3, Crysis 2, Street Fighter 4, Command & Conquer 4, Assasins Creed 3, Alan Wake, Just Cause 2, Skryrim, Tombraider and Crysis 3. Only 1 strategy game in all that but I doubt anyone could claim I'm going short of gaming options! :smile:
There's no technical reason why Kinect based games can't be released for PC to be used with the Kinect camera for PC, but the question is how practical is it and will it happen?
I'm not sure how well the X1 would act a workstation, perhaps it really could be great but you'd obviously need keyboard/mouse functionality, the ability to save/load from the HDD, printing/network capability etc...
If all that's easy enough to pull off then maybe we'll start seeing X1's replacing PC's in offices and X1's being sold in PC world with monitors instead of desktop PC's
The package is both hardware and software. If your including Kinect and the TV control capabilities as a value add component of the X1 then it's only fair to include the full workstation capabilities of the PC as well. How much value you attribute to these features though is pretty much personal opinion. Thus I thought it made more sense to compare only on the feature where these two systems cross over, i.e. core gaming capability.
Incidentally though the same argument applies to X1 and PS4 comparisons. PS4 lacks both HDMI in (as far as I know) and a motion control camera. So maybe it's easier for this thread to compare PS4 to PC in value terms?
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he he, it's very nice having PC gamers at heart here --kinda miss Neb.
That setup is quite expensive for me, but of course, who wouldn't love to have that.This is certainly an age old debate, just like some others like Windows or Mac and such, even so every time it comes up I do give my input..
Your PC would be great for games and a lot more, and a poorly combined PC is going to do no good to a demanding game, but if you know your stuff, (which is no longer rocket science to most people -it is to me somehow-), you are good to go for almost all games. Besides that you can keep on upgrading it virtually forever.
Apart from the performance of a machine like yours, there is a factor that usually seems to me is the most powerful aspect of PC gaming. It is, of course::.. Mods.
It makes PC gamers enjoy some games at their maximum potential.
Consoles can't use mods.
Even so, what is happening currently in the console gaming side of things is MINDBOGGLING.
For me this generation is probably the most pivotal time in the history of gaming, ever.
The changes that are happening and taking place in the console landscape are interesting to every one, whether you are PC gamer or a console gamer, etc etc. This will have resounding impacts in our future.
I think we will need to wait 1-2 years to get a competitive PC for the same money...
during the last gen it took longer (like until mid 2008).
but... in my case, I like to have a nice fast PC for other usages, so the gaming hardware price is lower, and I always buy cheap or used hardware... and I don't have to pay for PSN/LIVE or something, also it's nice that I can mix old an new stuff (like my case and PSU are really old, I also have lots of old input devices), my PC currently have a 5850 as VGA, the rest should be OK, so an upgrade to a cheap 7850 2GB overclocked to 1100MHz should be OK for the multiplatform games?
you can't do that with your old console, and if you get rid of it, you loose compatibility with your old games.
during the last gen it took longer (like until mid 2008).
but... in my case, I like to have a nice fast PC for other usages, so the gaming hardware price is lower, and I always buy cheap or used hardware... and I don't have to pay for PSN/LIVE or something, also it's nice that I can mix old an new stuff (like my case and PSU are really old, I also have lots of old input devices), my PC currently have a 5850 as VGA, the rest should be OK, so an upgrade to a cheap 7850 2GB overclocked to 1100MHz should be OK for the multiplatform games?
you can't do that with your old console, and if you get rid of it, you loose compatibility with your old games.
Silent_Buddha
Legend
Even a GTX 660 Ti with a custom cooler isn't particularly quiet and that's going to be quieter than any GTX 670 unless it's running a water cooler with a huge radiator with a large slow fan.
http://www.anandtech.com/show/6159/the-geforce-gtx-660-ti-review/18
From looking at the design of the Xbox One, I'm willing to bet that Microsoft is aiming to hit near the noise floor at the Anandtech labs. As well as going completely passive and hitting well under the Anandtech noise floor when not gaming.
To accomplish anything like that with powerful PC hardware will require watercooling with the aforementioned large radiator + large slow fan.
Perhaps, I'm wrong, however, and Microsoft isn't aiming this directly at home entertainment enthusiasts where you often have to spend over a thousand USD for a truly quiet HTPC suitable for a well designed home theater room. None of the cheap and often noisy components that are being bandied about this thread. We're generally talking full passively cooled systems or systems with at most one fan. But even one fan is often too noisy for a real home theater room. As the fan can be quite obvious during low noise moments in film.
For gaming a little fan noise can be tolerated in such conditions, hence, my speculation that the fan in the Xbox One will only activate during gaming.
Taking note of that, it's particularly noticeable that they went with something similar in specs to a 7770 but with the clocks of a 7750. As the 7750 is currently the most powerful passively cooled GPU you can get at retail. Speaking of which those passively cooled 7750's are still over 100 USD while almost all of the actively cooled version are under 100 USD. Just goes to show that a good cooling solution that isn't always reliant on active cooling is more expensive to design and implement than an active system.
I'm going to guess significant resources have gone into the Xbox Ones cooling system with an eye towards quietness.
This next bit isn't a reply to your post, I just didn't feel like posting another post.
But I like how desperately some of the PC people are trying to make PC hardware seem as affordable as the next gen console hardware is (software is another story entirely). Resorting to used hardware? Really? Resorting to cheap components?
Sure you may be able to approach the performance of the next gen consoles (doubtful due to the lower OS overhead, tighter integration, ability for developers to optimize for basically one hardware target, etc), but at a significant loss in user experience, ease of use, quality, reliability (used hardware? cheap hardware?), etc.
And I'm one that does almost all of my gaming on PC still, and that will likely continue during the next gen unless FPS games start to support keyboard and mouse on consoles.
You pay more but you also get more functionality from a PC. It's certainly not relevant to gaming, but it is still part of the cost benefit. Just like Xbox One will cost more than the PS3 and that cost may or may not be justified depending on how much one values the non-gaming experience.
Personally, I spend quite a bit on my PC. Then again I also use my PC for work. If I didn't, I'd be torn as to whether to start doing the majority of my gaming on consoles. Probably not, as I can easily afford the cost of a PC. But for many people it's a quite valid choice that they make for affordable gaming.
Regards,
SB
This..
Case: Zalman HD501.. £6
CPU: i7 930.. £50
Ram: 6GB xms3 1600mhz.. £15
Ram: 6GB xms3 1600mhz.. £14
Cooler: H70.. £35
Mobo: Asus P6X58D-E Intel X58 £50
GPU: GTX 570 asus directcu II.. £80
PSU: OCZ ModXStream Pro 600W.. £27.50
Hard Drive: 500gb.. free
And this is it assembled....
As I said, for £408 you can toss in a 3Gb 7950 in there and literally max out everything at 1080p with 4xMSAA+4xTrSSAA
That machine even with using second hand parts would still be more reliable then a console IMO....
I recently purchased an Intel core i5 2500k and a used Zotac Z68 miniITX motherboard for £120 for both. Overclocked it running 4.6Ghz and due to watercooling its quieter then any console I've heard.... All that in a board that's only 6.7"x6.7"
7 out of the 12 PC's I've built for people this year have been built purely on used parts and they're still rocking it hard
Try a small radiator with a slow fan....
Xbox live gold is now offering 2 free games per month too.
In all fairness, from now till December, Gold will also provide free games. Nothing mentioned on what will happen after that though, but the way DLC works, I expect we'll see more. Just not clear yet how they can handle things in the first year of the new console, when all games are basically still new and premium. Sony may be able to leverage Indy games, beta's, but otherwise not sure. Getting more details on the special Plus version of DriveClub could shed some light ... (maybe less content that can be bought as DLC later?)
But yes, Playstation Plus does offer some great free games for sure.
And then you list 2nd hand parts?
Starting with a £6 Zalman HD501 case that Google only has available at £150? Including a free 500 GB HDD? Where does one get a free 500 GB HDD from? How does your strategy work for 10 million early adopters of next-gen consoles, all buying HD501 cases for £6?!Can we please have a comparison of new like-for-like only that is complete regards the HW that the consoles offer - CPU, GPU, RAM, drives, controller, etc. Can we please stay away from 2nd hand ideas which aren't comparable (unless you're comparing 2nd hand for 2nd hand and we consider a console can be bought off a mate who's strapped for cash for £200).
This thread is a joke, just had a warning for trolling because I posted a list of used parts?
New parts like for like?
Come off it..... So one of the biggest advantages of gaming on PC in the form of used parts is not allowed? Why? Because you can't do it with consoles?
So much for an intelligent discussion.... More like console fan boys cherry picking situations if you ask me.
New parts like for like?
Come off it..... So one of the biggest advantages of gaming on PC in the form of used parts is not allowed? Why? Because you can't do it with consoles?
So much for an intelligent discussion.... More like console fan boys cherry picking situations if you ask me.
Betanumerical
Veteran
He said like for like, comparing used computer parts and fee computer parts to a brand new console isn't like for like.
If you want to use, used parts know off I dunno ~80/90 off the console.
Or using the same logic I could just go.
I got given a PS4 for free from a friend, therefore it costs 0, therefore PS4's are better
. Also you need to include input devices (mice, keyboards, etc) and a HDMI cable if we want to be really narky.
Immediately after being asked to compare new parts.
1) Because used parts aren't predictable in price.
Googling prices, I cannot find an HD501 for under £140. I cannot find an i7 930 for less than £99. GTX 570 asus directcu II is currently £165 used on eBay.
The used part market cannot supply millions of ex-console gamers with budget parts, so it's an exceptional strategy with little baring on the subject of providing hardware to the gaming populace.
2) Because you can buy used consoles too, so you should compare used for used. The price of a PS4 isn't £200 just because I know a guy who's short on cash and is selling his cheap. The price of an i7 930 isn't £50 just because you know where to go to get special deals, or knew a mate who'd just upgraded.
I think you are clearly missing the point! Things aren't black and white. You say higher performance, but what if that performance isn't noticed. You say buy a desktop PC, but what if people want a laptop. You say put it together but what if someone simply isn't inclined to spend the time/effort figuring stuff out. I am typing this on a BEAST of a system attached to a TV with the keyboard on my lap; however even with that performance and my relatively high technical experience I sometimes long for the simplicity of a console. Do you know that the sound on this computer STILL cuts out when I switch inputs sometimes? I have had to put a button on my desktop that resets the connection because even with hours of searching I still haven't sorted that crap out.
I may be a PC gamer but I am not impressed with the idea that people can push their opinions on others as if there isn't an alternative side/alternative perspective. It doesn't matter that the PC can have quad HD surround gaming with virtual reality. People just want to have fun, to play games, socialise and their having better graphics or a higher frame rate doesn't significantly impress enough people for there to not be a market for consoles. Why should it matter that PC's can do things better when consoles can do things good enough?
Yep console gaming probably does cost more. If you invest the time into the PC you can have an extremely rewarding experience. I have been amazed for instance by the graphical fidelity your HD 4890 put out back in the day.
Depends on your baseline. If you were already a pc gamer then you can reuse lots of parts, that's an advantage of pc gaming that typically gets forgotten on forums. The new console gen is very low spec so in my case I can basically re-use everything in my current gaming pc, the hdd, mobo, ram, cpu, keyboard, controller, etc, all I have to change is the gpu once some games come out that need > 2gb of gddr. Plus I can sell my old gpu to fund a new one, so to me pc gaming is looking mighty cheap on the hardware side right now, maybe just ~$200 out of pocket to upgrade to full 1080p @ 60fps spec for the duration of the new console generation.
Also I don't know why used parts aren't allowed. If you guys want to artificially restrict yourselves then I guess it's up to you. but there's this resource out there called eBay that lets you get stuff super cheap, there's no need to drop a pile of cash on new stuff all the time. I mean you guys buy used games and used consoles right? There's a whole other thread with people brandishing pitchforks over rights to used games, so why aren't used pc parts allowed? I don't get it, why shackle yourselves for nothing?
Oh, used parts are allowed, but that isn't in the spirit of the discussion of comparing like for like. nor will your experiences be identical to my experiences with used parts. Imagine you're a company that's trying to sell a mass produced product just like the console makers are.
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