HL2 source has supposedly been leaked

Discussion in 'PC Gaming' started by bloodbob, Oct 2, 2003.

  1. speng

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    Found it on VE3D - Posted by AndyB.

    CS-Grim explains:
    Speng.
     
  2. Natoma

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    Huge difference between using a program and removing it if not satisfied or purchasing it outright if satisfied and breaking into someone's computer, stealing the source code, and redistributing it.

    One does potentially irreparable damage. The other does not.

    Agreed.
     
  3. flf

    flf
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    I'd just like to state that I am shocked that Valve's development environment is reachable from the internet. That is the most amazingly brain-dead move I've ever heard of.

    Every single developer should have two computers: One for development and in-house communication, and one that is for outside access. The development network should have NO physical interface that links the outside-access network. It should require a physical action (copying the data to a CD and taking the CD to another computer) for source materials to be available via the internet.

    Furthermore, your network should be completely firewalled and NATted, so that all traffic must pass through your box that does filtering and traffic analysis. That box should also dump everything to a syslog server. Gabe shouldn't have to ask the world to help, he should have all the information logged as to what machines where communicating when.

    I feel for the boys and girls at Valve, but I also feel that they should fire their network manager and hire someone competent. Their security design is woefully inadequate.

    I manage a decent sized AD forest, but our financial systems have completely independant user databases. A breach in the outer layer should not mean a breach in the inner layer.

    (Of course, now that I say this I'll probably be the next hacked.)

    Still... when we're talking about a game that takes four years and millions of dollars, you need to treat your source code like state secrets. You should have firewalls inside your firewalls, or (as stated before) you should have a dedicated development network that doesn't touch the rest of the world.

    Anyone know some devs that want to find out some basics about how they protect themselves from network infiltration?
     
  4. Natoma

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    Hmm. Expected reply

    Even if had nothing to do with the actual theft, if this [GSM]Grim person really does know the people involved and posted it to Usenet, he's in for some pretty nasty legal trouble.
     
  5. Vince

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    Common dude. Everyone knows that ATI is the center of the universe. Someone *obviously* put their butt on the line to hack Valve so that they could *possibly* indirectly hurt ATI. I mean, forget hacking ATI directly or the massive intrinsic value of what this guy did in itself - it's gotta' be associated with the legions of ATI-haters that fly around in their black helicopters. lol.


    On a serious note. This is a horrible event and it is truely a tragedy for a company the calibur of VALVe to go threw. Hopefully their Steam initiative isn't derailed as it took a brave company to strive for the future and to loose something as long-term as it, in this way, is aweful. It's also sad how many people around here think; or perhaps talk sans thinking?
     
  6. Freak'n Big Panda

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    I was seriously just thinking about that. I mean if you put millions of dollars into somthing, make sure its safe.... Gabe said his comp had been acting wierd and sombody hacked his email... that would be a red light to me at least to get the comps off the net.
     
  7. WaltC

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    ANY company with money...? Uh...Enron, WorldCom/MCI, maybe...just for starters? Savings & Loan fraud nation wide? Plenty of companies "with money" lie, cheat and steal. That's fact and history--not fantasy. Heh...Russ, this isn't kindergarten. Were you aware that nVidia claims to have spent $400M developing nV30...? Did you know they lost the xBox2 contract to ATi, which in fiscal 2003 brought them some $445M in revenue, or about 1/3 their total income? You're aware, right, that their biggest board OEM partner is no longer exclusive--that Asus is now selling ATi-based products? Who isn't, these days?

    What--you think that nVidia will just "laugh it off" when ATi grabs 68% of the mobile graphics market, and owns 97% of the mid-to-high range 3d card market, and most likely because of their comparatively poor DX9 hardware nVidia will lose hundreds of thousands of 3d card sales to ATi because of HL2? Where were you all year, Russ, when nVidia had to can the nV30, and they had yield problems for nV35 that reportedly didn't get fixed until September--last month--when ATi has been selling the crap out of 9700Ps for ONE YEAR and 9800Ps since May?

    Think this is all just kiddie stuff--"tee-hee-hee" stuff that just doesn't matter to nVidia at all? Good grief--just a couple of days ago Merrill Lynch downgraded their stock to SELL.

    Russ, I think you've been hiding under a rock, or you've got some really effective blinders strapped on.

    Right now, I'd imagine fouling up ATi's HL2 deal is just about nVidia's biggest priority at present--getting in on that action is probably all they can think about. Don't know if you know it--but HL2 is going to be the biggest selling game published in years--it may break all kinds of records. And Valve says "Buy Ati!" to every 3d gamer on the face of the earth--and you think that's "tee-hee-hee" stuff to nVidia? Man--you really need to read the Merrill Lynch report--and you need to stop pretending that nVidia is some indestructable icon that exists in a realm above mortal man and laughs at the plight of humanty--or whatever it is you think.

    If you start looking at *motive*, then right away it's extremely easy to see that out of anybody else nVidia had the very best motive of all. What, you think some software company wanted to hijack the source so that it could put out a game using Valve's code, make a zillion dollars, and float off into the sunset? There's no way any software company could do something like that and ever have a prayer of getting away with it. Only place they'd float away to is a nice, comfy jail cell. I guarantee Valve could spot its code a mile away--the only thing guaranteed a software company in a theft like this is that they'd get caught the minute they tried to use it to make money. And they know that, so they're not going to do something like that because there's no money in it.

    Heh...:) What's funny is that I can imagine you'd find it credible that any other company aside from nVidia would do something like this. Let's face it, somebody did it--and it was organized and well financed and had a specific goal in mind. I would imagine Valve will bring the FBI in on this, and when they do, the first thing the FBI will do is to investigate people and companies *with a motive* to do it. By gosh--nVidia's got a strong one.

    This is corporate espionage, man--there's nothing "teeheehee" about any of this. And that's the sad part of this Russ--it hasn't been "teeheehee" all year long, but I can see that apparently that's all you ever thought of the lies and cheating and everything else nVidia's been doing this year--that it was "teeheehee." Not quite, I'm sure.

    I'm not prepared to say it was nVidia at the moment--certainly, but neither am I prepared to think it's a bunch of Muslim terrorists who couldn't wait to play HL2 so they ripped off the code, and I'm not prepared to think it's a disgruntled employee--because, nobody's going to risk getting caught and imprisoned unless somebody offers really big bucks for that source code--which leads us right back to looking at people having a motive to get it. Which definitely includes nVidia. How the heck do you think they cheated 3dMk03 so effectively in the beginning???? Heck, they stayed in the FM program for 15-months out of its 18-month development cycle--just long enough to learn all they needed to learn to cheat it. You don't think that with the source they might do the same thing to HL2? Sounds plausible to me in light of what *they've already done.*

    You know--we're talking about a company that last year published fraudulent product specs on its web site about nV30 (the 8x1 pipeline) and lied about it consistently until they were caught. We're talking about a company which cheated a major benchmark for a good portion of the year, while doing its level best to completely discredit that benchmark company--who had the committed the terrible crime of writing a DX9 benchmark with ps2.0 support which made their products look bad in comparison to a competitor--so it was "get FM" time at nVidia for a long spell there.

    Russ, what kind of nVidia do *you* imagine exists? It sounds like you think they are a bunch of oblivious Saints...:) That's why I had to ask what rock you've been hiding under all year.

    I gotta' tell you, you surprise me with this kind of naivete'--companies with money--Heh...they can be the worst kind. Talking about Enron--I'm sure you know that before the crap hit the fan they were one of the most trusted, admired, well-regarded companies on Wall Street--they had an excellent world-wide reputation. Before the house of cards collapsed. It collapsed because of the truism that "all that glitters is not gold" and you can't judge companies by their exterior appearances because they may be rotten underneath. I had a friend who lost a bundle in the Enron collapse, and he, like lots of other investors who got swindled, was totally suprised when the dam broke. Just reminding you here that nVidia had a fairly sorry rep for most of the year among its customer base--nVidia's no Enron--not even close. The fact is that nobody really knows the true internal state of the nVidia corp--there could be things that they've been doing on the margin for years that came back to bite them with vengeance this year--on top of everything else.

    I'm not saying I think nVidia did this--but I am saying I believe they had a powerful motive to do it--and I am saying that *any company* is capable of dasterdly deeds when its back is against the wall. Especially if there are things buried in the books that might might come to light later on if the company gets into to real financial trouble. Nowadays, Russ, they are throwing CEO's in jail for that kind of thing. That's a powerful inducement for any individual to avoid a fate like that at all costs. As far as I'm concerned nVidia is definitely a suspect here--but that's as far as I'm willing to personally take it as far as my own belief goes. Believe it or not I would *much prefer* to find out nVidia had nothing to do with it. But neither can I close my eyes and imagine it "just isn't possible," either. Too many companies have proven it eminently possible.
     
  8. zsouthboy

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    Someone is a little paranoid.
     
  9. epicstruggle

    epicstruggle Passenger on Serenity
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    You reap what you sow. They should never have used outlook express, and should definetly never have the preview pane enabled. How often have we heard of virus/trojans/worms getting through the preview pane. Whoever was in charge of security and networking should definatly be sacked. They messed up big time and now their paying for it.

    I totally agree with you flf, they should have had completly separate computers one only accessiable inside and the others for communicating with the outside world. And working from home should be a big no no. I hope they catch whoever did this. But valve should look internally for a major part of the blame.

    later,
    epic
     
  10. epicstruggle

    epicstruggle Passenger on Serenity
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    i havent looked at the source, but how easy will it be for NV or ATI to now "optimize" their drivers for the game now. Are shader instructions within the source code?

    later,
    epic
     
  11. digitalwanderer

    digitalwanderer Dangerously Mirthful
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    I'm not disagreeing with what you're saying, but how do you get that it was "organized and well financed"?

    It could also just be an awfully clever bugger sitting in his basement somewhere, couldn't it? What elements make it seem "organized and well financed"? (I'm really curious, I'm not flaming or knocking ya and I'm getting tired of always writing a disclaimer but I figure 'better safe than sorry'. ;) )

    Heh, I hadn't thought it thru that far yet but I bet you are correct. This isn't just a case of a set of drivers leaked or something, this is a deliberate act of espionage against Valve and flat-out wrong....I sure hope it's illegal!
     
  12. digitalwanderer

    digitalwanderer Dangerously Mirthful
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    I'd agree with you yesterday if he hypothesized it, but I wouldn't have believed in the possibility of the source of Source being available for download this morning either.

    Methinks we're coming up fast on the "end-game" bit....I'm just sorry that Valve had to suffer so much to get us there. :(
     
  13. Vince

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    Hmm, I haven't confirmed it myself, but just like Valve admitted and we all spotted this?


    Ohh, and Walt. Get help.
     
  14. epicstruggle

    epicstruggle Passenger on Serenity
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    vince do a bit of research before you post such utter crap. That part of the source code is actually LGPL. And Valve can and did license it. So they can use it. Next time look into it.

    later,
    epic
    [edit]there are alot of assumptions being made without fact checking. HAVOC was licensed by valve, people in the know have comment on this already. I believe I saw a comment on /. from one of the authors of HAVOC, ill try to find the link on it.
    later
     
  15. Vince

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    I just said, "Hmm, I haven't confirmed it myself, but just like Valve admitted and we all spotted this?" - how much more blatent do I have to be?
     
  16. Barney04

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    You sir, must be on crack or something
    Whatever you are smoking, stop right now.
     
  17. Nappe1

    Nappe1 lp0 On Fire!
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    Vince, epicstruggle is right: LGPL != GPL

    and as you can see:
     
  18. Natoma

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  19. Humus

    Humus Crazy coder
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    Aah, crap! :(
    This is not good news. As if game developers didn't have a tough enough situation already with tight budgets, warez and everything ..
     
  20. Natoma

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    epicstruggle and nappe1,

    Vince wasn't saying Valve was guilty of any malfeasance. He was saying that there is almost no way to spot illegal usage of your code in a compiled piece of software. Just as no one would have seen that bit of code that Valve used, do you honestly believe we would be able to see Valve's code in someone else's product without seeing the real source itself?

    You're misreading his statement and his intent.
     
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