HD-DVD Will Win the Format War!

A lot of movies are already stored in HD resolutions in MPEG2, and that includes Sony movies as much as other studios. It is therefore cheaper to release these movies in MPEG2 as there is little to no re-encoding needed. Converting these movies to another format would take time and money, and obviously the bulk of initial releases are all about releasing early to get some cash pronto, not about quality at all.

Don't ask me why this is happening with Bluray and not HDDVD cause that will be a mystery for a while, execpt for the fact that the initial Bluray movies were Sony's movies, and we all know why Sony wants to push MPEG2 more than other studios.

This makes sense. Digital TV movies are encoded in MPEG2 so releasing them cheaply in this format would make sense. I think that either the studios were waiting for MPEG2 on the dual layer 50GB BD disks (which have been delayed slightly) or they have all paid up for H.264 licenses and don't want to spend more licensing VC1. Of course with HD-DVD the capacity is lower, so you can't get decent HD with MPEG2, so they would have to license VC-1 or not release until H.264 gets going.

For some reason media companies seem very reluctant to go with VC1. Perhaps it has something to do with the mess in Windows Media formats, with Microsoft, Apple and Realmedia chopping and changing formats to lock each other out of their players. There seems little doubt that if VC1 is adopted, then Microsoft will create a new and improved VC2 which will only play on Windows PCs and media centers, thereby putting standalone media players at a competitive disadvantage compared to Microsoft's offerings. MPEG4/H.264 on the other hand is a committee standard which can't easily be changed or extended in a proprietary way to benefit one member.

I think pretty well all media companies will standardise on H.264 and not VC1. VC1 will be a Windows Media Format. In UK. Sky BSB, the dominant UK HD broadcaster was in discussion with Microsoft for two years about using the VC1 codec, but announced recently that it was dumping VC1 and going with H.264.

http://digital-lifestyles.info/display_page.asp?section=distribution&id=1978
 
I think pretty well all media companies will standardise on H.264 and not VC1. VC1 will be a Windows Media Format. In UK. Sky BSB, the dominant UK HD broadcaster was in discussion with Microsoft for two years about using the VC1 codec, but announced recently that it was dumping VC1 and going with H.264.

http://digital-lifestyles.info/display_page.asp?section=distribution&id=1978



That's right, but - and i can be wrong - i think SkyHD is still using MPEG2 for most of its programs. Also, most of its programs are still just upscaled SD material so it's all a mess really. The imprtant thing is that the SkyHD box can take MPEG4 HD broadcasts so it's just a matter of time till it's all on MPEG4.

Telewest HD material is MPEG2 and will stay like that for a while, as they really have no problems at all with bandwidth, and obviously it's cheaper for them to keep their HD material on MPEG2 without re-converting it... :smile:
 
I think you may be right about Sky using MPEG2. However, the BBC and ITV HD trials over digital are using h.264!
 
Er ATM hd-dvd has 5 more GB since they're on dual layer ;)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HD-DVD#Released_titles

Yes, and the film studios were probably counting on dual layer BD disks with 50GB for their initial MPEG2 offerings on BD disks, but dual layer BD media production was delayed forcing them to publish at lower picture quality. On the other hand HD-DVD publishers always knew high quality MPEG2 movies wouldn't fit on dual layer HD-DVDs and so they went for VC1 from the onset.
 
Yes, and the film studios were probably counting on dual layer BD disks with 50GB for their initial MPEG2 offerings on BD disks, but dual layer BD media production was delayed forcing them to publish at lower picture quality. On the other hand HD-DVD publishers always knew high quality MPEG2 movies wouldn't fit on dual layer HD-DVDs and so they went for VC1 from the onset.

So they knowingly put out inferior quality? Sony and others were simply hoping that HD DVD would not come out the way it did. Remember the worse looking titles have come from Sony. They were hoping to simply get by with SL25/MPEG2 and no one would complain. Then they could take their sweet time with BD50 as there would be no competition.

HD DVD came out and became the benchmark. This became a huge problem for Blu Ray as it's precisely why we're seeing the backlash. For majority of the titles they're stuck with SL25 until BD50 becomes mainstream reality but no one has any idea when that maybe. Hell, we wanted the R520 to be a 24 pipe monster but it didn't work out that way did it? What we want and what is economically feasible can vary greatly. Getting stuff running under lab conditions vs. high yields of hundreds of million discs is very different. There is a chance that BD50 is a bit more than they can chew and it might take a few years to get to an acceptable level. BR didn't start up recently. They have been working on it for a few years now. To have 0 BD50 titles out is quite alarming and clearly demonstartes a problem with the media.

I'm seriously hoping it's not long term because it would be cool to see majority of the titles on BD50 from studios that don't support HD DVD. That way I'm not limited in my selection but I certainly will not buy a BD25 Mpeg2 title as it tells studios to we're willing to accept that.

Shape up or ship out, that's my message to the BR camp. My money is to be earned, not taken. And I'm easy to please!
 
Actually I think 25GB is not that bad for MPEG-2: you can get 25Mbps for more than 2 hours. The bitrate is higher than many HDTV broadcasting. It's probably those "special features" which eat up the space and forced the bitrate down. If they can't get dual-layer discs out sooner, maybe they should consider making a dual disc package.
 
Actually I think 25GB is not that bad for MPEG-2: you can get 25Mbps for more than 2 hours. The bitrate is higher than many HDTV broadcasting. It's probably those "special features" which eat up the space and forced the bitrate down. If they can't get dual-layer discs out sooner, maybe they should consider making a dual disc package.

Actually some of the BR titles are missing extra's all together. For some reason though they feel the need to stick with lossless PCM which just eats up space. They could have used a lossy audio codec, reclaimed space and used it towards video. How much would it help? who knows? but perhaps there are certain issues with the Samsung when it comes to decoding advanced audio formats as they are not mandatory in the BR specs. If I remember, I'll post a link to the audio spec chart for both in this thread the next time I see it.

Putting out dual discs would be PR suicide. Not only would it make them look silly as they had been claiming disk space advantage all along but it'd be a clear indication that BD50 is a hoop dream.
 
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Using lossless PCM is actually quite common even on DVD, but of course they are for stereo audio. Using lossless PCM for 5.1 multi-channel audio would be very crazy (it takes 4.6Mbps for audio alone). Of course, in the context of HD video, 4.6Mbps doesn't seem to be much compared to 20Mbps for video. But if you have only 20Mbps for video+audio, then a 4Mbps savings from using AC-3 or AAC instead of lossless PCM would be quite significant.
 
So they knowingly put out inferior quality? Sony and others were simply hoping that HD DVD would not come out the way it did. Remember the worse looking titles have come from Sony. They were hoping to simply get by with SL25/MPEG2 and no one would complain. Then they could take their sweet time with BD50 as there would be no competition. HD DVD came out and became the benchmark. This became a huge problem for Blu Ray as it's precisely why we're seeing the backlash. For majority of the titles they're stuck with SL25 until BD50 becomes mainstream reality but no one has any idea when that maybe. Hell, we wanted the R520 to be a 24 pipe monster but it didn't work out that way did it? What we want and what is economically feasible can vary greatly. Getting stuff running under lab conditions vs. high yields of hundreds of million discs is very different. There is a chance that BD50 is a bit more than they can chew and it might take a few years to get to an acceptable level. BR didn't start up recently. They have been working on it for a few years now. To have 0 BD50 titles out is quite alarming and clearly demonstartes a problem with the media. I'm seriously hoping it's not long term because it would be cool to see majority of the titles on BD50 from studios that don't support HD DVD. That way I'm not limited in my selection but I certainly will not buy a BD25 Mpeg2 title as it tells studios to we're willing to accept that. Shape up or ship out, that's my message to the BR camp. My money is to be earned, not taken. And I'm easy to please!

It is not an issue of having difficulty in getting BD50 to work out of the lab, the issue is that BD media manufacture requires complete retooling whereas HD-DVD media manufacture can make use of HD-DVD manufacturing plant since it is based on DVD technology. This is the one and only advantage that HD-DVD has over BR. As for multiple layers, BD can do more than HD-DVD because of it's thinner cover layer, 200GB disks have been tested and demonstrated, so technically dual layer BD is not a problem.

What you have not is a shortage of BD50 media because media manufacturers have tooled up for BD25 first. This disadvantage will disappear for good in a few months.

The media companies know this. H.264 is a superior format to VC1 in terms of fidelity, and also standards compliance, and the media companies know this. The media companies certainly know a lot more about these issues than you or me, and I would suggest that this is why the media companies are prepared to wait a little and go for BD25 and MPEG2 in the interim.

Despite the rather emphatic title of this thread, I think this latest push by the HD-DVD camp to claim that they are winning is a desperate attempt to get in the FUD while it still can. HD-DVD has already lost the HD war in my opinion. Toshiba needed to get more than NEC and Sanyo on board to even have a slight chance of remaining in the game.

Millions of PS3s will have BD drives in them.

In UK anyway, some Sony Vaio high end laptops with BD drives have already appeared on sale - Misco is a major UK IT retailer: http://www.misco.co.uk/productinfor...4MB/ 200GB/ Win Media Center/ Notebook PC.htm

Some PC component suppliers are already selling Bluray bare drives and media. http://www.cclonline.com/product-categories.asp?category_id=351 It is more difficult to get hold of HD-DVD add on drives.

Few big IT retailers outlets seem to sell the HD-DVD equipped Toshiba equipped Qosmio G30-163 (this is a non-IT store that does). http://www.johnlewis.com/Shopping/Product.aspx?Type=SKU&ID=230306723&source=14798 So there you have it.

The retailers seem to have already decided that Bluray has won and the big outlets seem be reluctant to sell HD-DVD equipment, and with every day that passes, HD-DVD's early advantages are being whittled away.
 
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BD50 can be done on the same lines as BD25. The "retooling" is horrible yields. Once a BD replicator is setup (1.5mil) it can produce BD media. Yields are another story. There's no special "BD50" setup and nothing I've read even hints anything like that. If you have some evidence, I'd love to see it.

Sony wouldn't have had one movie out on BD50 by now seeing they have the replicators and mastering services for BR at this time? The BR camp has been working on BD50 for quite some time. Its' not like it was added tot he specs yesterday. Surely, atleast ONE title would have been launched using BD50 media. I'll bring this thread up in 2 months and we can compare how many titles are on BD50 and how many on BD25. That should be fun : )

You must have not been paying attention when AVC encoded HD DVD movies from Japan were compared directly to their VC-1 counter parts and lost out. VC-1 has matured a lot since then also. AVC, not so much.

You're hoping for BR to win simply due to your Sony loyality and disregarding it's need to advance and get on par first. Things don't just happen because you wish them to be. Are you really going to use lab resutls to make you 200GB case? Hell, I'm sure Ati can produce a 32pipe 64 shader card in the lab. Does it mean we'll see in masses anytime soon? and at yeilds of hundreds of millions? not so much. You're confusing "techincally" with "reality."

As I've stated before, Blu Ray has a lot of work to do. They need to catch up on both price and quality. Once they do, they'll earn my money. You might have different criteria for a CE earning your money but that's up to you. I simply will not pay 2x for lesser quality. Once they deliver on their promises, I'll happily have a BR player in my home theater. In the mean time, I'm enjoying the best HD picture I've ever seen, coupled with great audio and one of the best upscaling players on the market for SD media. All for $400. I'm not too stressed.
 
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I think the current mentality wrt Sony is that people who have already been watching HD movies in the form of broadcasts (mainly the US) are used to a certain quality which is more or less the same as Bluray movies at the moment. I think that because BD50 is having a few issues and delays, Sony decided to release movies which were "good enough" considering people have been used to HD broadcasts (which aren't exactly perfect), then with time things will obviously get better. It's almost like they fully expect Bluray to make a big impact when PS3 is released, so they haven't really pushed anything too hard.
HDDVD was the format that needed to prove itself, and Toshiba hit it hard and released a player that actually works (if i were Sony, i would have tried to stop Samsung from releasing a faulty player, maybe they did try too) and the movies released were all better quality than most HD programming you can find at the moment.

Does anyone remember the state of DVD movies when it first came out? The DVD released in the first few months were all single layer and with horrible picture quality, people wondering why exactly they should buy new players which were VERY expensive, not really seeing the difference from the best broadcasts at the time... Sounding familiar? I don't see why things would change now. These things always take some time to get right.
 
...and with every day that passes, HD-DVD's early advantages are being whittled away.


Actually with each day that passed, HD-DVD grows stronger (Better IQ, More movies out, cheaper players, ect). Not that it means much....
 
Holy crap in a can, this disc looks horrible! I've written a couple of previous Blu-ray reviews where I'd called certain discs the worst High Definition image I'd ever seen, thinking HD couldn't possibly get any worse, but here Sony just keeps lowering the bar for the format. The Robocop Blu-ray is U-G-L-Y. And before you write in to chastise me that, "The movie is 20 years old. What'd you expect?" or "It was a low-budget movie. It can't look much better", save your breath. Those are bullsh*t excuses and dead wrong. The problems with this disc all stem from the video transfer and the Blu-ray authoring. Robocop is not supposed to look like this. No movie is supposed to look like this.

Ouch. Nevertheless, anecdotal. Not good, certainly, but they still have some time. This particular fellow has clearly Had Enough of BRD tho. Clear evidence of cumulative ire bursting out there.
 
The Blu Ray camp really needs to start cutting prices. Its one thing to just be worse looking, but a whole new mountain if you look worse and cost more.

I'm personally looking out for those $30 players!
 
BR owners should be happy to know that the next release of Warner batch on BR will be using VC-1 and should identical to their HD DVD counterparts (the same encode can be transfered between the two).

This will also let everyone know if the Samsung really does have an issue or it was just smoke and mirrors :smile:
 
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Do we have a release date for that batch? Looking forward to something a little more apples-to-apples on that point!
 
BR owners should be happy to know that the next release of Warner batch on BR will be using VC-1 and should identical to their HD DVD counterparts (the same encode can be transfered between the two).

This will also let everyone know if the Samsung really does have an issue or it was just smoke and mirrors :smile:

Now thats definately good news. Does anyknow know if they will re-release the titles they have borked on Mpeg2?
 
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