HD 4870 X2 (R700) review thread

Discussion in '3D Hardware, Software & Output Devices' started by willardjuice, Jul 14, 2008.

  1. John Reynolds

    John Reynolds Ecce homo
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    You know, this is a smidge off topic, but it's amazing to me (a non-programmer who's about to talk out his ass) that eight years after the release of the Voodoo 5 and all the hoopla and hype between 3dfx's RGSS and NV's OGSS that year that we're still seeing AAA titles like ME released without in-game AA options. It's a helluva lot better than it was a few years ago, but reflecting on the history of the feature's support over the last 5-6 years it's almost as if the developers have been grudgingly dragged against their collective will into today's sporadic support. We get blinding HDR in almost every last game these days, but AA support is still hit 'n miss.
     
  2. Silent_Buddha

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    I try. :) By not buying (or playing) their games if they don't. :) Although for the time being I give them a break if AA at least works correctly when forced.

    Looking like I may have to give all UE3 based games a pass this go though if AA works like it does in Mass Effect.

    Regards,
    SB
     
  3. Silent_Buddha

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    Even more amazing when you consider decent AA helps with suspension of disbelief and graphics IQ more than pretty much anything.

    The other stuff might make you go, oooooh cool. But the moment I see jagged crawlies moving around. It's immediately ugh, ugly...

    Then again I'm just weird like that. :p

    Regards,
    SB
     
  4. Skrying

    Skrying S K R Y I N G
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    That's the problem many people just don't see it that way. I do, but just look at console games and you can clearly see how unimportant AA is in peoples eyes. HDR is also one of the features I consider to be a BACK step in graphics. I'm a clean and crisp sort of person though.
     
  5. Quitch

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    Jaggies are something people just never notice, until one day they do and then they can't ignore them again.
     
  6. trinibwoy

    trinibwoy Meh
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    Sure anything besides art direction, animation, geometry, lighting, shadowing.... :razz:

    AA is and always will be an enhancement. It can never improve IQ beyond removing jaggies. All the other things have a much bigger impact on immersion IMO.
     
  7. John Reynolds

    John Reynolds Ecce homo
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    I'm sorta with SB on this: all the advanced features and wonderful art assets are largely wasted on me if something as basic as AA doesn't work with the game.
     
  8. trinibwoy

    trinibwoy Meh
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    That's not my point though. My point is that AA enhances what's there. AA can't do squat on its own to improve IQ. HL1 with 200X AA is still going to look worse than HL2 with 0xAA.
     
  9. ShaidarHaran

    ShaidarHaran hardware monkey
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    Right on the money. Jaggies were never an issue for me in the early days of gaming (2d) as it was expected. Then the shift to 3d occurred and jagged edges just seemed to come out of nowhere.
     
  10. BRiT

    BRiT (╯°□°)╯
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    Has anyone spotted HD 4870 X2s for sale or for preorder?
     
  11. Silent_Buddha

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    There's where we differ slightly. HL2 will have more oooh factor, but will immerse me less in the game without AA. I'll be constantly distracted by crawling edges.

    HL1 might not make me go OOH, but neither will I be taken out of the game by watching distracting crawlies move around on my screen.

    Now if I didn't actually play the games and only wanted to look at static screenshots, then yes the jagged edges would mean far less and I'd be able to more fully appreciate better art assets, 3D bling, etc... But once I start moving around and playing, well all that goes out the window the first time I see edges crawling.

    In the end, I would end up enjoying the HL1 experience more (disregarding story, etc) just due to the fact that the game itself didn't try to pull me away from experiencing the game.

    And yes, I realize my opinion isn't shared by everyone. :) I respect the fact that you (and many others) aren't distracted to the same degree by jagged edges and the jarring (to me) experience they induce when you start to move around.

    And to be fair, AA (even transparency AA) and AF don't solve ALL issues that might drag me out of immersion into the game, but it goes a long ways towards removing/reducing the majority of them.

    Regards,
    SB
     
  12. John Reynolds

    John Reynolds Ecce homo
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    I understand what you're saying but it's a matter of tastes. For example, prior to the Chuck patch I was running Oblivion with AA and without HDR. You can have the best surface textures ever but if I have to stare at MIP map lines moving across them the IQ is fundamentally broken for me. Same goes for AA. If I learn that a game or game engine is somehow incompatible with MSAA it seriously impacts whether or not I'll buy that title.
     
  13. trinibwoy

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    That's not the case though. I'm sure that others including myself notice jagged edges just as much as you do. But I really can't see the impact of AA being greater than the other things I've mentioned.

    Oh in this particular case I would agree. Here you're trading one thing for another in the same game. That's not what I'm referring to.

    Say you have a baseline visual experience today. All I'm saying is that adding AA to that baseline will have a lot less impact than improving on the other aspects of the experience. SB disagrees. We've had 4xAA for ages now but the argument that modern games with no AA are less immersive than ancient games with AA gets lost on me. I can't believe my HL1 vs HL2 example didn't work on him though....it's a lost cause :lol: Anyway, this was just a little side distraction...didn't mean to derail the thread.

    Edit: Actually one more thing that sorta proves my point: 3dmark Vantage GPU Test 1 ;)
     
  14. Sound_Card

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    AA is part of the IQ. Maybe you have me confused on your meaning of IQ, but I thought IQ was quite a bit different then graphics. :smile:
    At least that is what I go by.
     
  15. SirPauly

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    I agree, and tough to actually see the wonderful art assets because the dreaded aliasing pokes my eyes out -- my dogs and my neighbors' eyes out, too!:)
     
  16. trinibwoy

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    Who said AA isn't part of IQ? I said AA can't do squat on its own to improve IQ. Unless you want to assert that adding AA to an old game makes it look as good as a new game.

    All of my comments are with respect to SB's assertion that AA has the greatest impact on IQ. I'm not disagreeing with anything that you, JR (and now SirPauly) are saying.

    I raised the case earlier with 3dmark vantage. Using AA there is like putting lipstick on a pig. It doesn't make the scene any more immersive or impressive. Now instead of looking like shit, it just looks like anti-aliased shit.
     
  17. trinibwoy

    trinibwoy Meh
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    Heh, but you have to have wonderful art assets in the first place don't you? Which is precisely my point.....
     
  18. trinibwoy

    trinibwoy Meh
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  19. Chris123234

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    1) IQ is not how pretty a games are assets are.
    2) Yes, jaggies, by their very nature, will make a scene less immersive because jaggies aren't real in real life.

    Stop using extremes by saying, "If AA doesn't make a piece of shit look like 3D mecca it's not that important"...
     
  20. Silent_Buddha

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    Whoa, I don't think that's what he was getting at.

    Triniboy and I just disagree on HOW important AA is. We don't disagree about the fact that is IS important.

    It comes down to whether the jaggies prevent you from enjoying the graphical goodness on hand or it doesn't.

    For me, no amount of graphical goodness can prevent me from being distracted by jaggies.

    However, on the other hand, superb AA can make even a relatively bland looking game immersive just due to the fact I'm not being distracted from enjoying it.

    That is, of course, if it has an immersive story, logical level layouts, etc.

    To me, special effects, bling factors, ultra high rest texture maps, bump mapping, reflections, etc. are all secondary to AA for just one reason. A less detailed texture, non-existent HDR, lack of realistic reflections, etc all won't make me focus on them to the exclusion of the game.

    However, some people aren't as distracted by the jaggies and can still immerse themselves in a game that has all the latest graphical bling.

    I believe that's the only major difference he and I have. The degree to which we can tolerate jaggies and the crawling of them on screen. I have very low tolerance, he has a bit higher tolerance of them.

    It's just not something you can make someone understand. How jarring and distracting it is when your eyes are pulled to them just about every second you are playing.

    Regards,
    SB
     
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