HBRU's "I think there's going to be a PS4 Pro2" thread *spawn

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pro2 only -future- monstre PS5 forward & back compatible can boost sales of it...
To justify it... 16 jaguar cores @2.5 ghz
 
ToTTenTranz said:
Tkumpathenurpahl said:
Could a triple layer BR be used in a way that the PS4/Pro could read two layers, and the PS5 reads the third and fourth?
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Maybe not, but does it matter?
If the PS5 comes with a UHD bluray drive, does it mean all PS5 games must come in a 3-layer disc?
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They wouldn't need to, but I think it would be quite an elegant solution to cross generation games: buy the PS5 game, get the PS4/Pro version for free.

One disc, two binaries; all PS4 assets and its binary on the first two layers, the PS5 binary and additional or higher quality assets on the subsequent layer or layers.
 
ToTTenTranz said:
Like that time when Microsoft said Kinect was here to stay? And the XBone would require always-on Internet and retail games couldn't be re-sold/borrowed?
Like when EA said they weren't taking pay2win lootboxes away from Battlefront II because they believed that was best for the gamers who had busy lives and couldn't spend lots of time grinding their way up?

Perhaps the audience is rather lenient when the "lie" is made in favor of the consumer, or doesn't harm the consumer and favors the developers who are making titles for the PS5's release window and could use the extra userbase.

I don't think for one second that Sony is going to make the decision of letting publishers/devs add PS4 Pro support for 1st-gen titles based on one sentence made during an interview to a german publication.

You're free to believe they are, though. That's completely fine.
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I can't find such deceptive PR wording tactics from Cerny, Yoshida, House, or Layden. We often saw salesman subjectivity like saying how excited they are about a game (of course you are, you're the producer!), or that a game is going to be amazing (yeah, as if you would say it will suck), we saw statements about what they were aiming for, or hoping to achieve which eventually didn't work out as planned. But never something like "it will never happen, the slim will get the same games over it's lifespan" and two years later "oh we changed our mind, you should have bought a pro instead of a slim, sucker".

Interviews have the wording often carefully planned by a PR team, but it depends on the company. And the idea of treating the pro as a ps4 for it's entire lifespan, and making sure it is never separated, has been explained and repeated by quite a lot of people. It's not from this one publication.
 
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I would imagine Sony would encourage hardware sales of PS5 consoles by releasing exclusive games for the system. Sony will want gamers to adopt their new platform so will give us a reason to do it in the form of PS5 only games. And they will of course continue to support PS4/Pro in their twilight years while reaping the rewards high software sales given the massive userbase.
 
ToTTenTranz said:
Like that time when Microsoft said Kinect was here to stay? And the XBone would require always-on Internet and retail games couldn't be re-sold/borrowed?

You're free to believe they are, though. That's completely fine.
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I didn't say it'd never happen. I said it'd make them liars and Sony have no plans to introduce PS4 Pro games (at the time of the interview).

You were saying the statement was ambiguous and open to a possible future of PS4Pro only games. I'm saying the statement isn't ambiguous, but of course a PS4 Pro only situation could arise if Sony change plans - plans can change.
 
pro only games has little o no sense right now as vanilla PS4 are maybe the 95% of installed base and there is not great difference in CPU power between the two... Future pro2 / ps5 of course only titles has sense if pro2 and then PS5 are massively bought. Pro2 beeing (in my view) both backwards to PS4 & forward to PS5 may create the bridge between gens that PRO cannot... A bridge that publishers can decide by its own to cross as they want with old titles living room for PS5 remastered (to be payd) or PRO2 patched (free).
 
Shifty Geezer said:
You were saying the statement was ambiguous and open to a possible future of PS4Pro only games. I'm saying the statement isn't ambiguous, but of course a PS4 Pro only situation could arise if Sony change plans - plans can change.
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No, I said the statement is ambiguous enough to allow for letting devs release a number of PS5 games to be backwards compatible with the Pro and not the base PS4.
I never mentioned Pro-only games. That would be stupid.
 
look... A 13 TF Console today would cost hell, need huge SSD.... 2023 will be maybe doable...

what can be done today ?
build a PRE-PS5 or POST-PS4... Something in between... A PRO2

You buy it today and know that you'll play also future PS5 games.
 
It won't take until 2023 for the release of a ~13TF console.

The Vega 64 is 12.7TF with a die size of 484mm (I might be a bit off here, as I'm going from memory.) GloFo's 7nm process promises a 2.7 times area reduction [1].

So, at 7nm, Vega 64 should only be ~180mm2. Well within the scope of the PSXO SoC's, and feasible by the end of next year.

Moving on to your other point that it could function as a bridge, and that people would buy it, knowing that it plays PS5 games. Okay, but, at that point, why not just call it a PS5?

I've recently upgraded to a Pro (launch PS4 was dying on its arse, and a Pro worked out only £60 more expensive) and it makes a world of difference to VR. Otherwise, games generally look and perform much better, but that's with minimal effort and investment from most developers, who have largely just increased the resolution and added effects like screen space reflections.

Even being modest and assuming Sony release an ~8TF console in 2019, with 4/8 Zen cores, and 12-16GB of developer accessible memory, it would be so much more powerful than either PS4, that shackling it to a 1.84TF or 4.2TF console with 6.5 Jaguar cores and 5-5.5GB of memory would squander it.

Now, we've seen what a 1080p game could look like if built from the ground up for the Pro, and it's amazing (I'll try to find the video) but we know it's never going to happen because developers are tied to the base model. The same problem would apply to a Pro2 but moreso because it would be more powerful, more expensive, and (probably) less popular than the Pro. We'd see 8TF of performance being used for higher resolution shadows and an extra 15fps over the Pro.

And for what? What's the benefit of releasing a "Not-PS5-PS5" instead of just an actual PS5?

Let's even assume modest hardware, available now: Vega 56 downclocked to ~8TF, 8 Zen cores clocked at 2.5GHz, 16GB of GDDR6, and a UHD Blu-ray drive. Why would you release that as a ProPro instead of a PS5?


[1]https://www.techpowerup.com/242148/globalfoundries-7-nm-to-enable-up-to-2-7x-smaller-dies-5-ghz-cpus
 
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ToTTenTranz said:
No, I said the statement is ambiguous...
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Yes, you said it's ambiguous. I said it wasn't ambiguous (it isn't - you need to fabricate an after-the-fact get-out clause). My 'pro only' was shorthand for 'only on the Pro version of PS4 consoles'. A game that runs on PS4 Pro flavour of PS4 and not vanilla flavour PS4, regardless what other machines it also runs on, is a game that violates Sony's assertion. There is no wiggle room in that assertion, and if we do see games that run on PS4 Pro (and PS5, or not, doesn't matter) but not PS4, Sony will have pulled a 180 and will have to make up some PR crap to excuse themselves from their previous 'promises'.
 
8 TF is far from enough, yes even taking into account of the Zen cores and 16g GDDR6 ram designed ground up for next gen visuals. You would see a significant visual leap for sure but only at 1080p-1440p. Forget about anything native 4k, or even 1800p, toss 60fps out of the window too if people want to maintain those next gen visuals. It's almost a mathematical certainty at this point. CBR or frame injection would help for sure but I got a feeling Sony would want to push the native 4k narrative feverishly come next gen so reconstruction technique is not a guarantee win. Ideally PS5 would need 16 TF or more for significant visual leap at native 4k so late 2020- 2021 is far more likely. A Pro2 wouldn't do much harm if only to cater the hardcore folks such as I:), people know a PS5 is coming so most wouldn't care much, Sony don't have to invest much either, have a very limited yield for launch and price it whatever they deem fit because they know hardcore fans would buy it regardless. Just like the good old Geforce 5900 Ultra vs Radeon 9800 XT back in the days.
 
why ?!? People LOVE to buy FUTURE but also LOVE to have something to play NOW. How to join both ?!? Sony I guess sees happily the hell of salses coming from remastered games. So will have also PS5 remastered games sure. So backward compatibility must end at some point, or better, must be restricted to publishers who want it for free (cause they maybe put the game into some sort of game pass) and others who want maybe a 20$ for much bettered result. So my idea of the "bridge"... :D
 
Shifty Geezer said:
Yes, you said it's ambiguous. I said it wasn't ambiguous (it isn't - you need to fabricate an after-the-fact get-out clause). My 'pro only' was shorthand for 'only on the Pro version of PS4 consoles'. A game that runs on PS4 Pro flavour of PS4 and not vanilla flavour PS4, regardless what other machines it also runs on, is a game that violates Sony's assertion. There is no wiggle room in that assertion, and if we do see games that run on PS4 Pro (and PS5, or not, doesn't matter) but not PS4, Sony will have pulled a 180 and will have to make up some PR crap to excuse themselves from their previous 'promises'.
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Agreed. The statement is only ambiguous in the same sense as life: anything can happen.
 
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PRO is not future proof... Actually OneX is better. So yes you buy it... But well also you wait something better coming. Probably at 7nm it will be the base model... 199$ PRO2 must be something more attractive. SSD are too costly today so also having something >8TF may be not so usefull. But the 60 fps for next VRR is something really needed. So 6,5->14,5 jaguar cores available... And clock them as high as possible... So at least PS5 games will run at 30 fps. To have both a forward proof console, a Next VRR proof console, and that doesnt cost more than the classic 399 $ ....
 
ultragpu said:
8 TF is far from enough, yes even taking into account of the Zen cores and 16g GDDR6 ram designed ground up for next gen visuals. You would see a significant visual leap for sure but only at 1080p-1440p. Forget about anything native 4k, or even 1800p, toss 60fps out of the window too if people want to maintain those next gen visuals. It's almost a mathematical certainty at this point. CBR or frame injection would help for sure but I got a feeling Sony would want to push the native 4k narrative feverishly come next gen so reconstruction technique is not a guarantee win. Ideally PS5 would need 16 TF or more for significant visual leap at native 4k so late 2020- 2021 is far more likely. A Pro2 wouldn't do much harm if only to cater the hardcore folks such as I:), people know a PS5 is coming so most wouldn't care much, Sony don't have to invest much either, have a very limited yield for launch and price it whatever they deem fit because they know hardcore fans would buy it regardless. Just like the good old Geforce 5900 Ultra vs Radeon 9800 XT back in the days.
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I don't think we're likely to see much in the way of native 4K games next generation, not when the likes of CBR give comparable results for just over half the cost.

I agree that 8TF isn't enough, and we'll get at least Vega 64 performance IMO, but my point is, that by making that shitty console its own generation, it will at least be properly utilised. That wouldn't be the case with a Pro2, which would see little effort and investment from developers. As we see now, with the Pro and X1X.
 
well 16@2,6 ghz is 3 times orig ps4's calc CPU power... Not so bad. But ok. It depends if future multiplat games are going to take advantage from 16 threaded CPUs (like Ryzens :D)... The single core weakness is anyway a big problem as ryzen is going be clocked 4,2 ghz... CCX vs Jaguars ? Dont know actually. If CCX are adopted is not going be a PRO2 but also backward compatibility maybe problematic without patches... And why patch for free a game ?!? MS does this... Different market view.
 
HBRU said:
why ?!? People LOVE to buy FUTURE but also LOVE to have something to play NOW.
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People are upgrading their phones less and less frequently, because the cost isn't worth the marginal improvement. When a PS4 Pro 2 releases, why won't 99.9% of people say, "I'll just wait until PS5"? PS4 Pro made sense (for the small percentage who cared) because PS5 was still some years off and they knew it. Another new machine makes no sense unless PS5 is 5+ years away, but Sony would need to say that to get people to upgrade.
 
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