Graphics industry now gone to the dogs.

[Sabastian]

The more I look into purchasing a decent mid range graphics solution for my kids this Christmas the more I realize that the industry is literally going down the tubes. After considering a low end integrated solution (based on an ATi integrated graphics part that could not be had unless I paid a premium for a Intel based system ) and deciding against it. I thought that I would go for a mainstream mid range price/performance product. Well.. little did I know that if you do not have the quid to cough up for the performance the mainstream is packed full of little surprises for the consumer.

I decided that I would go looking around for a decent priced to performance product here http://www.ncix.com/products/index.php?majorcatid=101&minorcatid=108 for starters because I have a friend who matches their products locally without the shipping expenses. So I can buy from him locally as I go at little to no extra expense. Oh I looked at the celestica 9600 xt for $180 canadian only to find out that I could not get one for that price and that celestica is getting out of the graphics card business. Then I considered the gf 5700.. I know, but whatever.. turns out they are not available at all and the only NV products I can get were the 5200 and some other undesirable variety. Nvidia must really be hurting to have soo little in the channel here in Canada. There was a time that they were the predominant supplier.

So anyhow after running into road blocks all over the place and learning that the Power color Radeon 9600 pro cards that are on the market are highly likely to not be from Power Color at all. I run into this card..

http://www.sapphiretech.com/awards/image/media_292.jpg

Well, it is a 9800 core cut back in clock speeds and the memory bus cut in half. I thought I wonder how well that card performs and how much it costs?? Heh, well on NCIX assuming it is the same card it will cost you $237 canadian. But my friend can get it for $190 and that is after he takes his pound of flesh. So I am wondering you know why the disparity? So I go looking around. Well.. there are some of these SE/PE/LE/Pro 128 bit/256 bit clocked at 320/290, 380/300 some with BGA memory some with TSOP. Some are reported to have 4 pipelines and some are supposedly geared with 8 but IIRC an 8 pipeline arrangement does not make sense with a 128bit memory interface. All seem to be run under the 128 bit moniker and some with the 256 bit (but they are not the problem.) The differences seem to be in the PCB lay out and memory placement/type. I have yet to find an actual review of the 128 bit version I am considering though. I think I have managed to find just about every other variety but not the exact configuration.

At any rate I am getting pretty god dammed pissed. I think I’ve just about had it. I can only imagine that novice end users will be blissfully unaware of just how bad things have gotten. Lucky sobs.

http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/video/display/20040521081115.html

http://www.ixbt-labs.com/articles2/over2k4/index_2004.html

http://www.ncix.com/products/index.php?sku=12069&vpn=1024-1C47-00-SA&manufacture=SAPPHIRE

http://www.legionhardware.com/html/doc.php?id=340

http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=16650

http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/video/display/20040712134537.html

http://www.d-silence.com/feature.php?id=236

http://www.tomshardware.com/hardnews/20040618_063138.html

blah.. and I'm supposed to be an "enthusiast" type. Guess you can only be an enthusiast if you can afford the bestest fastest.

 

[digitalwanderer]

blah.. and I'm supposed to be an "enthusiast" type. Guess you can only be an enthusiast if you can afford the bestest fastest.

That's why I always just rotate my graphic cards down the line in my family. Aside from sort of justifying my upgrade, it keeps a good card in everyones machine.

I'd rather have a slightly older top-o-the-line card than a brand new shiny budget card any day!

 

[Sabastian]

blah.. and I'm supposed to be an "enthusiast" type. Guess you can only be an enthusiast if you can afford the bestest fastest.

That's why I always just rotate my graphic cards down the line in my family. Aside from sort of justifying my upgrade, it keeps a good card in everyones machine.

I'd rather have a slightly older top-o-the-line card than a brand new shiny budget card any day!

Oh I agree, last years top end is the way to go really. My problem is looking in the mid price range for a decent performing card. Last years best is roughly $300 canadian after taxes which is still too much for a video card.

 

[digitalwanderer]

Have you looked into the used card market? I've seen a few 9700 pros going for $100us and such.

 

[kyleb]

Oh I looked at the celestica 9600 xt for $180 canadian only to find out that I could not get one for that price and that celestica is getting out of the graphics card business.

You can obviously get one from NCIX for that price, and it is a reasonable price for the card. The 128bit 9800s are decent cards for what they cost as well, although your option would be to pick up a used 9700 or better for that price or less. Please don't take this personally, but I think you are just being a timid shopper and have subcontiously conducted your "the industry is literally going down the tubes" argument as an excuse.

By the way, where did you hear that Celestica is getting out of the graphics card business? I rather doubt that as they just started.

 

[Sabastian]

Have you looked into the used card market? I've seen a few 9700 pros going for $100us and such.

I don't have credit so shopping online for used stuff is extra difficult. As for second hand stuff locally ... that isn't a horribly happening market. (re. Fredericton N.B.) I am looking for something that isn't used however and gives decent price to performance not the value market or low end. I'm not looking for answers from you Dig (but thanks for that) I am mearly stating my opinion about the dammed industry and how it seems to have gone down the tubes so to speak. You really have to know what your doing to buy a good price to performance graphics part.

 

[Sabastian]

Oh I looked at the celestica 9600 xt for $180 canadian only to find out that I could not get one for that price and that celestica is getting out of the graphics card business.

You can obviously get one from NCIX for that price, and it is a reasonable price for the card. The 128bit 9800s are decent cards for what they cost as well, although your option would be to pick up a used 9700 or better for that price or less. Please don't take this personally, but I think you are just being a timid shopper and have subcontiously conducted your "the industry is literally going down the tubes" argument as an excuse.

By the way, where did you hear that Celestica is getting out of the graphics card business? I rather doubt that as they just started.

Celestica has been in the industry for years working with ATi. According to the retailer friend of mine after he called and made an inquiry WRT the cards. Celestica isn't going out of buisness or anything but according to what I hear it is getting out of the graphics business. If things don't friging work out well enough with the sappire 128 bit Radeon 9800 I will push harder for my friend to match the $180 celestica price.

I couldn't agree more, I hate shopping. But this industry is no new thing to me and I didn’t just make up the above list of sights and reviews for the fun of it. I've been watching the market for years. I think buying a decent price to performance card is worse today then it ever was. Ergo the market has gone down the tubes with third party card makers trying to shaft end users as much as possible to make a buck. With lower restraints on third party vendors from companies like ATi and NV these companies can take advantage of end users a lot easier.

EDIT:find me a review of the card I am talking about.. this one.
http://www.sapphiretech.com/awards/image/media_292.jpg

Then I will STFU.

 

[digitalwanderer]

I don't have credit so shopping online for used stuff is extra difficult.

Not really, I don't have credit either. I've found that stuffing cash in an envelope and having them send the part after receiving the money works out pretty well though and most don't have a problem with it.

I'm not looking for answers from you Dig (but thanks for that) I am mearly stating my opinion about the dammed industry and how it seems to have gone down the tubes so to speak. You really have to know what your doing to buy a good price to performance graphics part.

Amen to that last bit, I really do feel sorry for people who don't know what they're looking for shopping for graphic cards...it's a jungle out there!

I only really buy used stuff off the "for sale/trade" boards around the web, and only on those boards I feel comfortable with....but I've never gotten burned.

 

[digitalwanderer]

find me a review of the card I am talking about.. this one.
http://www.sapphiretech.com/awards/image/media_292.jpg

Then I will STFU.

http://www.extremeoverclocking.com/reviews/video/Sapphire_9800SE_1.html

http://www.tweakzone.nl/extreviews/1449

But no need to STFU on my account, my son is home sick today and is driving me a bit bonkers.

 

[Sabastian]

find me a review of the card I am talking about.. this one.
http://www.sapphiretech.com/awards/image/media_292.jpg

Then I will STFU.

http://www.extremeoverclocking.com/reviews/video/Sapphire_9800SE_1.html

http://www.tweakzone.nl/extreviews/1449

But no need to STFU on my account, my son is home sick today and is driving me a bit bonkers.

Well the PCB is different and it is using the BGA variety while the one I am considering is using TSOP. Generally speaking Ball grid array memory is higher quality allowing for higher clock rates.

 

[Sabastian]

I don't have credit so shopping online for used stuff is extra difficult.

Not really, I don't have credit either. I've found that stuffing cash in an envelope and having them send the part after receiving the money works out pretty well though and most don't have a problem with it.

Err, something about blindly sending money to someone I've never met before .. doesn't quite strike me rightly.

 

[digitalwanderer]

Well the PCB is different and it is using the BGA variety while the one I am considering is using TSOP. Generally speaking Ball grid array memory is higher quality allowing for higher clock rates.

Picky, picky, picky!

Err, something about blindly sending money to someone I've never met before .. doesn't quite strike me rightly.

True that, but sometimes ya gotta take a risk in life.

Besides, it's just money...it ain't like it's anything important or anything.

 

[Sabastian]

Err, something about blindly sending money to someone I've never met before .. doesn't quite strike me rightly.

True that, but sometimes ya gotta take a risk in life.

Besides, it's just money...it ain't like it's anything important or anything.

Yeah, but me I value the time and stuff it take for me to get the little bit that I make. For instance I have to work for approximately 2 1/2 months of my life to get two computers for the kids before christmas. This friday I will have $1500 of the $2400 in total cost looked after. One more full paycheck and I will only owe 250-400 on the entire package. Dats a big deal too me working at $9.00 an hour.

 

[kyleb]

Celestica has been in the industry for years working with ATi.

Sure, I mean they just got into the business of "Celestica" branded videocards since that is what we have been talking about here.

As for the lack of 128bit 9800pro reviews, the card simply doesn't generate much interest since it was rather late to market as 9800s go and is only offered by two companies. As to the performance, it sits anywhere between a 128-bit 9800se and a true 9800pro depending on the situation. A 9600pro could top it in the most memory bandwidth limited situations; but I have never actually seen that happen.

I think buying a decent price to performance card is worse today then it ever was. Ergo the market has gone down the tubes with third party card makers trying to shaft end users as much as possible to make a buck. With lower restraints on third party vendors from companies like ATi and NV these companies can take advantage of end users a lot easier.

This is where you totally loose me. Back in the day our options were basicly a voodoo2 for $300 or two for $600; with not much for other serious gaming options. Since other companies have picked up the compitition our options have diversified greatly, and high end gameing is easly had for under $600, with half the $ getting you much more than half the hardware it did back in the voodoo days. Also, selling cards with trimed bus width isn't "card makers trying to shaft end users", but an effective way of providing a lower cost alternative which as been employed at least as far back as the tnt2 m64. Best I can tell, other than the recent troubles on high end due to heated compitition, things are getting better in the graphics indurstry all the time.

 

[Rolf N]

I can somewhat feel the pain, too. Currently looking for a replacement for a Geforce DDR (very first one) for my brother. Sold him an Athlon XP2400+, 256megs of RAM and a board and cooler to match for 60€. Two years old tech, basically, at an absolute budget bin price. Now, what to do with the graphics card? It's freaking hard to get a budget card that matches this age old Geforce DDR, let alone be appreciably better, in every respect for the same kind of budget. 60€ tops.

High end cards have gotten better and better at an alarming rate. But low end just didn't make anywhere near that kind of progress. 55€ would buy us a Geforce FX5200 w a 64 bit memory bus *shudder*. That's half the bandwidth of the six years old thing we're looking to replace! Nuts ...

 

[Doomtrooper]

Sabastian,

Ebay.ca is your friend.. i.e http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...;item=5116283845&tc=photo#ShippingPayment

Accepts money orders so credit card is not needed.

 

[kyleb]

I can somewhat feel the pain, too. Currently looking for a replacement for a Geforce DDR (very first one) for my brother. Sold him an Athlon XP2400+, 256megs of RAM and a board and cooler to match for 60€. Two years old tech, basically, at an absolute budget bin price. Now, what to do with the graphics card? It's freaking hard to get a budget card that matches this age old Geforce DDR, let alone be appreciably better, in every respect for the same kind of budget. 60€ tops.

High end cards have gotten better and better at an alarming rate. But low end just didn't make anywhere near that kind of progress. 55€ would buy us a Geforce FX5200 w a 64 bit memory bus *shudder*. That's half the bandwidth of the six years old thing we're looking to replace! Nuts ...

You are comparing used (and deal to a brother) prices to new ones, and even then your average Geforce4mx is a respectable upgrade from the old ddr and bound to be had for well under your "60€ tops." Used, you could surely find at least a 9500 for that price and that is without the deal to a brother bonus. If you want to talk new prices agaisnt what you sold your brother, that is bound to be at least $130 which is about the price of a 9600xt.

 

[Rolf N]

Deal-to-brother aside, I was just thinking that there should be something out in the market now for that kind of money that outperforms the Geforce DDR by a reasonable margin. And you're right, an MX440 should do. Unfortunately, MX440s are not in stock anywhere. Appears like they've been discontinued in favour of the MX4000, available exclusively in the 64bit memory flavor. A real shame.

Of course there are solutions. I didn't really look for tips, but ... thanks. Looks like you really wanted to help and that deserves some positive reinforcement

It just struck me that there are still cards on the market that are slower than this ancient beast ...

 

[Nappe1]

Gainward still makes Ti4200 (or Ti4800) cards, that I have been thinking as GeForce 256 DDR replacement on my 2nd computer. (Duron 1200MHz.)

Sabastian, I couldn't agree more on the state of the business. IT really is going, if not already gone, down to toilet. Prices are climbing higher and higher on every generation and the real change has been happened in Mid to low end market: Earlier, old chips/cards dropped down from High to lower end, but now the models are killed before they reach the "reasonable" price range. Instead of previous generation champions, we are now offered a lot of crippled versions of new chips that have higher prices. Plus there's at least dozen different versions of these to just make consumer more confused. (and usually get the consumer buy accidentally wrong version, with MOST crippled memory bus and most underclocked core, but still having over more than 50% from the price of full featured one.) Also, back in good old days, when competitor made a faster product, companies used to drop prices to make their product more competitive. Now, they make "optimized" drivers and start spreading FUD on competitor.



what happens on whole GFX card business, if next gen consoles have some sort of mouse and keyboard replacements? with HDTV support, there's no game genres anymore that would justice putting sum of 3 consoles to just GFX card.

 

[Sabastian]

Gainward still makes Ti4200 (or Ti4800) cards, that I have been thinking as GeForce 256 DDR replacement on my 2nd computer. (Duron 1200MHz.)

heh, I replaced my GF DDR with a Radeon 8500 LE. There was a noticeable difference in performance on games. I fried the memory just a hair though right after I got the card thinking for some reason that the memory should be reasonably overclockable.. now I have a very faint ghost following my mouse pointer. It isn't that obvious though.. it could have been much worse.

Sabastian, I couldn't agree more on the state of the business. IT really is going, if not already gone, down to toilet. Prices are climbing higher and higher on every generation and the real change has been happened in Mid to low end market: Earlier, old chips/cards dropped down from High to lower end, but now the models are killed before they reach the "reasonable" price range. Instead of previous generation champions, we are now offered a lot of crippled versions of new chips that have higher prices. Plus there's at least dozen different versions of these to just make consumer more confused. (and usually get the consumer buy accidentally wrong version, with MOST crippled memory bus and most underclocked core, but still having over more than 50% from the price of full featured one.) Also, back in good old days, when competitor made a faster product, companies used to drop prices to make their product more competitive. Now, they make "optimized" drivers and start spreading FUD on competitor.

A resounding YUP.

EDIT: They have managed to keep the price up on old tech by releasing crippled versions of them... which is exactly what I am in the position of buying.

what happens on whole GFX card business, if next gen consoles have some sort of mouse and keyboard replacements? with HDTV support, there's no game genres anymore that would justice putting sum of 3 consoles to just GFX card.

Well, the idea that the console market could possibly kill the PC market isn't anything new. It was billy gates that got all worried about that and started the xbox project years ago. This helped to actually revitalize software development for the PC... I think more specifically the question ought to be .. what if Sony kills the PC gaming industry? Since the software for the PS3 will likely be proprietary being a cell based plateform it will make porting development between gaming consoles like the xbox 2 and the PS 3 a lot more difficult for developers. (I might be wrong on that I suppose but I don't think so.)