Graphical effects that are standard by now but shouldn't

Discussion in 'Console Technology' started by L. Scofield, Feb 13, 2015.

  1. London Geezer

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    I kinda miss the days when every character in a ps2/3 game was like The Flash, leaving a long blurry trail behind them. No actually, I really don't.
     
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  2. Davros

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    Not common but absolutely needs to die
    Dragon Age the reflection on strouds moustache
    sorry I dont have a screenshot

    Edit: found this on youtube I think its from the console version
    on the pc the tache is darker and the reflection is more noticable
    [​IMG]
     
    #102 Davros, Apr 23, 2015
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2015
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  3. Arwin

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    That mostly just looks stupid because it looks pasted on
     
  4. Davros

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    The tache or the reflection ?
     
  5. milk

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    It's hard to make an empirical argument over if its necessary or useful... But from a purely theoretical standpoint, the most mathematically correct representation of a moving image on any given display with discrete temporal sampling, will have some amount of what we'd call motion-blur, even the full screen one, for instances when the camera moves. A 'theoretical' perfect motion blur ( or temporal antialiasing, to use the better terminology, that unfortunately has become confused with post-process Spacial anti-aliasing algorithms ) would have some amount of "blurring" even under the most minute motions, only that it would be at a sub-pixel level, only affecting the final color of each pixel in tiny fractions.
    Now, if what's best for a game is to be completely mathematically correct or not, is a different discussion, and a legitimate one. I would just like that certain fundamental points were clear to everyone that enter on these types of discussion, so that all are sufficiently well informed and on the same page for the discussion to be fruitful.
     
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  6. Shifty Geezer

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    Although true, the amount of actual 'blur' introduced in some cases will be virtually zero. A slowly panned shot on rails with a high shutter speed will have virtually zero cross-pixel influence, as it were. Globalisateur's complaint is mostly the exaggerated use of moblur to make everyone aware that the devs were clever enough to implement it. ;) Presumably a particular implementation of uniform screen blur across a vector? Otherwise full-screen motion blur is basically per-object motion blur applied to every object in the scene from the dirt to the clouds to the buildings.
     
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  7. Globalisateur

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    Found an interesting thread "Games that make you puke" at Neogaf (again) and not surprised at all to find those testimonies, as usual those are taken from the first page only:

    So I guess we found another usefulness to full screen motion blur? It induces weight loss? :runaway:
     
  8. London Geezer

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    I don't understand how motion blur can make someone feel sick?
     
  9. Shifty Geezer

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  10. Globalisateur

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    Obviously no Shifty because weight loss is actually a good thing for sedentary FPS gamers.
     
  11. TheWretched

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    As has been said above, with the fps motion sickness, I guess this applies here as well. I don't get sick (as in physically) from motion blur, but low fov, especially in PC games (less aggravating in console games on a tv, as I sit farther away from the screen). I didn't get sick from games, until I played Metro 2033. Not sick enough to have to stop playing, but queasy enough to feel bad afterwards. I've not felt this way before from games.

    I guess motion blur triggers similar reactions. Massive blur strains my "eyes" (or rather it gets to a point were my brain tries to reconstruct detail which is blurred away). I usually disable it, if possible... good thing on PC. Not sure... if I express myself well here...

    When I started playing Bloodborne, it felt strange, too... the massive CA in that game... made me move away more from the tv than usual. It felt similar to the low fov gaming. But after a while I didn't mind it anymore (seems my eyes got used to it).
     
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  12. Arwin

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    Resistance 2 and everything Valve makes with Source are nausea fests for me.
     
  13. hesido

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    I started toying with shadertoy yesterday. One motion blur shader by HLorenzi provides a very nice test for motion blur at different refresh rates. It turns out, even 60fps benefits from properly implemented motion blur, and even 15fps can depict smooth display of motion compared to its non-blurred part.
    https://www.shadertoy.com/view/XdXXz4
    Click on the webGL window to hide certain columns if you will. I couldn't believe that right-most column was actually 15fps. Some of you will notice the second circle has smoother motion compared to the first circle, both run at 60hz.

    The advantage of 60fps motion blur is, the supposed exposure time has to be lower so there's less motion blur, so the overall loss of image information is smaller too, compared to 30fps. It seems to remedy the ghosted trails strobing (thanks, that's the word I was looking for) problem inherent with finite amount of temporal samples with an exposure time of "instant", and replace it with a nice gradient that simulates motion on a continuous line instead of the object "jumping" between positions. Obviously you'd need much less of it for 120hz and probably not at all at 240hz.
     
    #113 hesido, May 13, 2015
    Last edited: May 13, 2015
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  14. Shifty Geezer

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    60 fps moblur is awesome. Looks far smoother and more natural. The strobing of the non-blurred 60fps is obvious and very disagreeable. To get smooth, fast motion without motion bur would need very high framerates which is an inefficient use of processing power.
     
  15. Globalisateur

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    First, that test only shows the advantage of per-object motion blur, not full screen motion blur.
    Secondly, how many samples does this test use? Do they use the same quality in most games in their per-object moblur implementation? I really don't think so.

    Some ugly artifacts from low quality per-object motion blur are easily visible for instance in MGS5 TPP. Totally different than what I see in the 60fps ball in this test where I admit it's well done and really hard to see artifacts.

    But again, that test is only working because they are showing high quality per-object motion blur, not low quality full screen moblur as it's used in many games.
     
  16. Shifty Geezer

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    I think it's more to prove the point than to perform a direct comparison with game motion blur. But even then, a moderate quality blur is going to be smoother than none. I feel the take home point is really how not smooth 60 fps is at speed and high contrast. It's clearly a slideshow even if a fast one.
     
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  17. Globalisateur

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    That's what I am talking about with my clarity and sharpness obsession (in the service of immersion): PS4 share pics of The Witcher 3:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]


    No tricks are necessary to truly immerse gamers in a rich world:

    No DOF to hide low quality backgrounds, no constant heavy blur around the view to simulate bad vision and makes it more "real" (it doesn't work), no excessive motion blur to awaken a cinematic mood in order to artificially enhance the experience (theoretically but it doesn't work too), no excessive chromatic aberration to hide a low quality AA or / and to enrich the visuals (both don't work as intended again), no excessive bloom to paint everything in a artsy effect.

    Just great art, great details and assets, great clarity not hidden behind any excessive Vaseline effect (whether bad AA or excessive use of the following effects: DOF, blur, motion blur, CA, bloom...that's a long list) and we are in a genuine immersive world full of magic, dragons and witchers. Obviously this game may use some of those effects (like CA), but very moderately and without damaging the image quality in the final product.

    By the way how many people are complaining about the lack of strong full screen or per-object motion blur effects in this game? I haven't seen hateful people demanding he inclusion of those heavy effects in the game, have I?
     
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  18. Shifty Geezer

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    One possibly explanation is that people who appreciate camera-effects are more balanced people and can accept games with and without post effects - they're not obsessive nor radicalised against different art styles. It's only the anti-post group that are emotionally invested in their computer game visuals to such a degree that they can hate a choice of art style and bitch about it constantly long after anyone cared to listen.

    :p
     
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