Getting an education

[Altcon]

Small question for you coders out here.
I plan on studying next year, specifically studying programming. I'm having a hard time making up my mind whether I should take a dedicated 18 month programming course or a university degree (in computer science).
The course offers me more freedom in terms of time to work and pay for it, but I'm afraid it might not suffice. I have no experience in this field...
These are the courses over the 18 month period:
Introduction to Programming using Visual Basic Language
Computer Methodology using Visual Basic (including project )
Advanced Programming using C Language
Advanced Topics in Programming using C Language
Introduction to Data Structures and Algorithms
Programming Project (in C) **
Introduction to Oâ€￾O Methodology and C++ Language
MCAD.NET program
Introduction to .NET
Programming with C#
Introduction to Databases and SQL
Introduction to ADO.NET
Introduction to Web Technology (DHTML, XML)
Developing Microsoft ASP.NET Web Applications using Visual Studio .NET
Developing Microsoft .NET Applications for Windows
Developing XML Web Services using Microsoft ASP.NET
.NET Design Patterns and Advanced Techniques
.NET Advanced topics (Threading, Remoting, and more)
Building COM+ Applications using Microsoft .NET Enterprise Services
Does that sound like enough or will a Uni degree offer much more?
I'm baffled....will it be harder to find a job afterwards?will the knowledge I gain be sufficient for a good start? What criteria should I be using?
Any help apreciated.

 

[Sage]

if it's techskills I'd say go the uni route because it turns out techskills is a pretty asocial place.

 

[digitalwanderer]

Screw that!

Go to school for pharmacy, trust me.

 

[Ninjagnu]

I'm currently studing computer science at uni and I would strongly reccomend taking the uni route if you reckon you have the skills for it.

The '18 month programming course' Seems like the 'cheap' solution to the problem (learn to program and then earn money at it).
Firstly, it only contains basic programming courses, generally what you will end up knowing there after 18 months is how program trivial things in most 'microsoft supported' programming languages.

I'm not saying this is bad at all, but if you want to / enjoy programming, then you the knowledge obtained in those courses are inferior even to those you will learn just exploring the art of programming on your own.

ei. in a nuthsell, its just what a company at the bare minimum expect you know, its not something that will guarentee you a job in any way, I'd say far from it.


Now at uni, while you might not have as many directly programming courses, the net result will be that you will end up being quite a bit better at it, for several reasons I'll mention a few.

First off, both uni and the programming course contain what I would call a 'high level programming primer' .. ei,
How to write something that is syntatically, semantically and logically correct in a given language (as in, a program that compiles and runs).
How to use the class library (ei. other peoples code).
Design patterns (reuse of problem solutions instead of code).

But some reasons while at the paper it looks like the 18 month course have the most programming but you will learn more at uni are.
Firstly, the 18 months course mainly focuses on those 3 topics above while uni will be about much more.
Secondly, if you look at a computer as a set of 'levels' (Andrew s. tananbaum, Structured computer organization), you will see that the 18 month course basicly only teaches about what is know as the 'problem oriented level' while at uni you will learn that it makes alot of sense to know about the others.
Thirdly, while many of the uni course are not directly aimed at programming knowledge, they do contain alot of it (considered a practical skill, like what calculations with numbers are to mathematicians) so you will end up doing it both for courses, but more importently also in your time off uni.

So in a nutshell what I'm trying to say is that the course will just rush you through the basics with blindfolds on while at uni will see the world of computer science like it really is .. so what is at, the red or the blue pill?

As a disclaimer to it all, as said I am studying at uni myself, and have little respect for those short term, 'lets teach people what they can learn themself' short programming courses.[/u]

 

[Killer-Kris]

I would say it's going to matter what you want to do with your life after your education. If all you want is a job being a code monkey, or working in IT then yeah, a 4 year university degree might be a bit over kill. On the other hand if you want a better chance to work up through the ranks and eventually get a say in how programs are made. Then you can't go wrong with the university degree.

I guess the easiest way to look at is whether or not you'll be happy with the doors your education will open for you. An 18month course will have a fairly limited number of doors opened for you (relatively speaking). A bachelors degree many more, with all the same options as before. And on....

So don't short change yourself if you think you might want to do more. You just may regret it. (Coming from the person who is nearly finished with his bachelor degree and is weighting the options of go work a job making $$$ or continue and do a masters)

 

[Tim Murray]

speaking as a CS student, go CS. languages are easy. CS is not.

 

[Altcon]

speaking as a CS student, go CS. languages are easy. CS is not.

I must say I am quite surprised at all the responses. I spoke to a few individuals who've graduated and are working (some at very big companies). I have been told the acadenic route is nothing more than a foot in the door and that the actual usable knowledge you gain over an intensive course is minimal or non existant and can be learned through open university if felt necessary.
Your responses have made me think twice and I shall be rechecking the field.
Not to be biased, I would also like to hear from people already working in the field (since all of those I have heard, well, contradicted your opinions). :?
did I already state I'm a bit confused?

 

[JF_Aidan_Pryde]

The 18 month course is a quick way to get a job.

University isn't about getting a job, it's about an experience and an education. Of course, you can use the education to get you a job. But unlike the 18month course, it's not a product designed to make you employable.

If you pick a fresh graduate and someone who just finished the 18m course, the graduate would get whipped in actual product development using current technologies. But I think given a few months and some learning, the graduate would be just as effective. As taskes become more advanced and varied, the graudate's better fundations (in math and computing theory) should give them an advantage.

I think university gives a better long term solution. But the 18 month course is very practical.

 

[Sage]

i think that if you want to stay at the bottom for the rest of your life the 18 month course will do great. but, if you plan to work your way up the ladder you will probably eventually run into roadblocks because you don't have a degree. a lot of times a degree- any degree -will give you an advantage over someone without one. Some places simply wont promote you over a certain level if you dont have a degree in anything.

 

[pegisys]

I took one of those 18 month courses but for electronics from my experience they will teach you just enough to get a job and thats it.

I'm at an university now but it's after working in the field and having the job help out with tuition not becuase I don't know enough to do the job but becuase I just want to know more about what I'm doing, that and being able advance my career.

I'm sure the same will apply to CS, an 18 month course will get you working faster and if you can find a job that will help with tuition it will save alot of money, but if time and money is not an issue I would go to a university

 

[K.I.L.E.R]

speaking as a CS student, go CS. languages are easy. CS is not.

CS is easy if you already know the things they are teaching.
I haven't learnt anything from my CS course that I didn't already know.

I already have 2 qualifications and this is my 3rd one.
I wonder what good it would do me besides giving me another piece of paper?

 

[Altcon]

CS is easy if you already know the things they are teaching.
I haven't learnt anything from my CS course that I didn't already know.
I already have 2 qualifications and this is my 3rd one.
I wonder what good it would do me besides giving me another piece of paper?

I assume you're working in the field, what would you recommend I do?

 

[K.I.L.E.R]

Nah man, I've just taken 2 years of study beforehand.

A diploma of Software Development and a Certificate IV in IT.
Both of them are heavy in programming, networking, databases, software engineering and some stuff I didn't really like.

This year I can get away with doing very little, just have to do 2 maths subjects and I'm optionally doing some 2nd year course subjects because I just can.

The 2nd subjects I didn't really like, or I have already done and I'm exempt from them.

CS is easy if you already know the things they are teaching.
I haven't learnt anything from my CS course that I didn't already know.
I already have 2 qualifications and this is my 3rd one.
I wonder what good it would do me besides giving me another piece of paper?

I assume you're working in the field, what would you recommend I do?

 

[rashly]

I asked a similar question on these forums a couple of years ago. I did a year of CS at a university, and when I came home for summer, I got a good job doing IT. I didn't want to lose the job by going back to school (experience is worth more than anything in this industry), so I had a choice between continue to work and go to college at night, or continue to work and do a 12 month program to get my MCSE. Most people here told me to go with the CS degree, but I ended up going for MCSE.

MCSE is 7 certs overall, I ended up getting 2, and then being really frustrated with the tests. I ended up going back to college after a year off (this is my first semester back) to finish up. College sucks. I am sitting here learning useless crap and I know more than many of my CS professors. It really is a waste of time and money, and it is very depressing having to do all of this just for a peice of paper. However, that peice of paper is too important not to have. Most people will agree that it means nothing, but it's the only way to get many jobs.

Working full time and going to school full time also sucks. I have 0 time for anything else. I can't wait until I am out of school.

 

[Altcon]

Working full time and going to school full time also sucks. I have 0 time for anything else. I can't wait until I am out of school.

I know the feeling...
About Uni I'm not sure, this course has all of MS's certifications at the end. I'm 28 and already have a degree (in Psychology), and I can't really sit back and do nothing but study for three years now.
Worse than that is that I have friends WITH CS degrees and not enough hands experience who can't find a job.
I'm going to ask around about the place they give the course and see what I can come up with.
Thanx...

 

[Natoma]

Successful programming is more of a state of mind rather than the embodiment of any one particular language. In essence, to be a successful programmer, you have to learn the underlying rules. That will allow you to learn any language successfully.

I'd suggest the CS route. They don't necessarily teach you the languages individually. They teach you the means by which you can learn any language. But if you're looking for a short term, and possibly cheaper, way to get a job, go the tradeskill route.

 

[Fred]

I'm rather biased being a theoretician at heart but I personally would go crazy taking the classes you list. Sure you will learn more stuff that will actually help in the job field, but then that to me is the easy part once you get there.

The theory of computer science otoh is beautiful, and completely nontrivial; knowing deep down what makes things tick seems to me to be the better route. Not for the job, but for your own mind. I think thats what makes say Carmack a great programmer. Sure he knows all the nitty gritty techie stuff, but fundamentally hes sound right down to the core, and thats what makes him stand out amongst many of his colleagues.

I've long since forgotten all the languages I had to learn in HS/Undergrad and for various applications. But I still remember the concepts behind the data structure algorithms, the theory of Turing and bits of signal processing. I know why AI languages are fundamentally interesting. The techie stuff, well, I can learn when I absolutely have too.

Either way, you'll be fine if you have the drive for it, though I just would never be able to stomach the ordeal unless I saw it for what it is deep down.