GCN´s flicker filter and texturing...

[Almasy]

Well, after finally trying out some GCN games extensively, and comparing their graphics to my PS2, I have been noticing quite a few things (Note that this criticism comes after testing them on a "normal" TV, not a HDTV at all, I´m also no engineer either).

One of the things I have noticed if that even GCN´s best looking game, Metroid Prime, looks too blurry, especially compared to the output of the PS2. I assume that that is a direct effect of GCN´s flicker filter being applied, since Tekken 4 on PS2 has a feature I think is very similar to it.

I appreciatte that the effect of jaggies is minimized, but I´m somewhat bothered by how every object on-screen fails to really stand out. Just to compare, I connected the PS2 and inserted FFX and MGS2. The difference in the sharpness of the output is very evident, and personally I found myself preferring slightly more jaggies but getting a sharper output.

Another thing I noticed in Metroid Prime, (and I´d like to know if more games suffer from this), is that textures in general, as varied as they can be, look very blurry in the entire image, but get sharper as you get close to them. Problem is, that this happens 5 meters away from your position, so at least I found it to be very annoying not having a "stable" texture, but rather constantly switching from low quality to a good quality texture.

Is the above the effect of texture compression, trilinear filtering, or anything of the sort? What do you guys think?

 

[Panajev2001a]

I didn't find the textures in MP to be that much sharper when you get close...

Of course you are changing mip-map levels as you get close and when you are close enough that means you will be seeing the highest resolution mip-map level...

I prefer MP's variety to have few and badly tiled High-resolution textures... the only thing they should have added is detail texturing so that when you get really close the texture does not appear too blurred and the detail is lost...

 

[Ozymandis]

Detail texturing is cool! I don't see why it's not used more often, the size of the textures in memory is pretty negligible (although I know it does require an extra pass). Metroid Prime could have definitely benefited from it.

The flicker filter is kind of nasty IMO. Although I haven't played MP in a long time on an interlaced display, I remember how blurry it made Rogue Leader look

I'd rather have jaggies I think.

 

[CeiserSöze]

Nothing beats progressive scan of course, but on an interlaced display I prefer the blurrier but less flickery picture with the flicker-filter applied (you can see the difference in Super Smash Bros. where you can disable the flicker filter - playing the game without the filter gives me a headache...).

btw is it just me or does the xbox apply a more aggressive flicker-filter than the cube (maybe a 5-line filter)? Generally the interlaced display of the xbox delivers a picture that is very "calm" (almost no flickering at all) but also very blurry. The cube's de-flickered picture is less blurry but flickers more (imho, of course). So are there any major differences between the flicker-filters of the cube and the xbox?

 

[Panajev2001a]

I agree... Morrowind IS a major offender... at times it is decisely too blurry

 

[Almasy]

I don´t know about Smash Brothers. The game doesn´t look that blurry, perhaps due to the pastel colors applied (don´t quote me on this). I compared MP because it used a more "realistic" approach to its textures.

I really haven´t had the oportunity to try the Xbox extensively. Is it really blurrier than GCN? :?

 

[Squeak]

Detail texturing is cool! I don't see why it's not used more often, the size of the textures in memory is pretty negligible (although I know it does require an extra pass). Metroid Prime could have definitely benefited from it.

Yes, detail textures certainly is a nice trick for “cheapâ€￾ high resolution textures, just look at Halos grass, or Moto GPs asphalt.
We’ve seen detail textures in most games on xbox and in some games on Gamecube, but curiously never on PS2, is it impossible for some reason?

 

[Blade]

is it impossible for some reason?

It's apparently very difficult (if possible) at 30fps.. and moreso at 60fps..

 

[Panajev2001a]

Detail texturing can be observed in a lot of Halo's objects... walls, rocks, etc...

It might be a cheap trick, but it really helps not to kill the fake detail the textures try to emulate ( instead of real 3D geometry when you get too close the textures get blurry and you loose the 3D effect... detail texturing helps to fix that by giving us some more detail )...

 

[Tagrineth]

Probably takes too much memory to be used effectively on PS2...

 

[Bowie]

Unreal on the PC had detail textures and it ran on a Voodoo 1 with 4 megs of memory.

 

[Tagrineth]

Unreal on the PC had detail textures and it ran on a Voodoo 1 with 4 megs of memory.

Voodoo Graphics was also limited to 256x256x16 textures... and did it use the detail textures on the VoodooG? I don't think that feature works in GLide... don't remember offhand though.

 

[Goldni]

If you want to see some detail textures pop in Super Monkey Ball 2 for Cube. Some of Sega's teams do a great job with this area. Afa MP goes. Yeah the 'blur line' is close but not as noticable as SC on Xbox was. But with the mm line that close I'm sure is what helped Retro keep a steady 60fps.

Oh and I'd take the XB and GCN picture quality (blurriness, flickering and all) over PS2 image quality. I play on a 50" interlaced TV and I swear there are only about 3 or 4 PS2 games that look as good as my XB and GCN images. I hate jaggies. I hate that 'motion blur' crap that alot of devs use on PS2. And I hate the sub Dreamcst texture quality of so many PS2 games. However the big budget 3rd gen games of PS2 games have alot of it figured out.

 

[clem64]

Timesplitters2 on GC and Xbox have detail mapping. PS2 version doesn't. I've always wondered why. Maybe S3TC is especially helpful for things like these.

I don't know what you're reffering to but I haven't seen any detail mapping in MP. The textures don't appear any different to me from up close or far away.

 

[Steve Dave Part Deux]

RL uses far distance detail maps.
Any time you're anti-aliasing or filtering, you're going to lose contrast, that's how it works. If you really need a sharper picture use an S-video cable.

 

[marconelly!]

We’ve seen detail textures in most games on xbox and in some games on Gamecube, but curiously never on PS2, is it impossible for some reason?

I have seen it being used at least in two games - Jak & Daxter (the metallic tower, which basically has three texture passes - base, reflection and detailed) and 'Pirates - the Legend of Black Kat' which uses that effect on the grass. I'm not sure about pirates game, but J&D is definitely 60FPS.

 

[Ozymandis]

Voodoo Graphics was also limited to 256x256x16 textures... and did it use the detail textures on the VoodooG? I don't think that feature works in GLide... don't remember offhand though.

Yes, it used detail textures in Glide.

 

[Ug Lee]

Just how do console flickers filters work anyway? That's always been knowledge that has eluded me thus far.

 

[Panajev2001a]

the CRTC controller takes the full frame ( 640x448 ) that is sent to the TV and it downfilters it to 640x224 as that is the size of what the TV accepts every 1/60th of a second ( 60 fps, 60 Hz refresh ) using a minimum of 2 samples per output pixel achieving free Vertical FSAA...

 

[Ug Lee]

The obvious assumption then - it's only used on games that run with full height frame buffers?

Thanks by the way, Panajev. 8)