Gaming in 8K and Beyond *spawn*

Discussion in 'Console Technology' started by snc, Jan 26, 2019.

  1. snc

    snc
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    I don't think there will be ps5 pro, ps4 pro was created because of popularity of 4k resolution.
     
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  2. BRiT

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    But there will be 8K ...
     
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  3. snc

    snc
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    I'm not happy that most of the power of new consoles will be used only to proper render native 4k, 8k... my God :(
     
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  4. iroboto

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    Brit is joking :) but yea, one day that will be a thing. Perhaps way out there. RT just begun, and a long line of performance is required there before we go to 8K
     
  5. turkey

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    Is he? The first 4K TVs came in 2012 in crazy sizes and price tags. PS4 was 2013 one year later, now we already have an 8K TV on the market for a lot less. In 4 years would 8K be so out there? I think TV makers will lack differentiation so resolution is an obviois sales gimmick to latch onto

    *I don't think they will target 8K native but I could easily see AI upscale in 4 years.
     
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  6. BRiT

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    A bit of a joke, or so I hope. But ... there has already been development push for 8K sets and its already in the HDMI specs, so its further along than 4K was at the same timeframe. Only time will tell how the market forces converge.

    If it wasnt for HDR I wouldnt want 4K, but the two seem tied at the hip. The extra level of pretties the 4Pro and OneX can do at 1080p output are nice. Hope the devs push forward with smarter rendering instead of naive / brute forcing approaches for higher resolutions.
     
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  7. Kaotik

    Kaotik Drunk Member
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    Considering that current 8K TV's can only take in 8K material via network or USB and that we have no 8K broadcasts outside Japan, I don't see how the situation is even remotely the same.
     
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  8. turkey

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    This is true and was semi tongue in cheek, if they refresh the model this year it will have hdmi 2.1 and 8k will probably be possible via hdmi, and we don't expect consoles year so "could" still follow that pattern.

    As an aside NHK a Japanese company now broadcasts in 8K, it is coming and I would not want to bet any great amount against it.

    , it was ment as a fun look to the past, let's see in 4 years where the 8K market it.
     
  9. vipa899

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    DF did a review on REZ Infinite, they played on 8k and 16k, 60fps too i think. Its there for the people that want it for less demanding games.

     
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  10. McHuj

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    I don't know how well 8K will be received outside of the niche videophile audience. I'm certainly not in the mainstream, but even I haven't bothered to upgrade my TV to 4K yet as my 1080p set still looks good enough. I'm not sure 8K will offer that much noticeable gain for the average joe to rush out and buy a new TV.
     
  11. Pixel

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    Maybe 8K could someday be relevant for VR so you don't see the individual pixels and can have a curved display with a full 170° by 120° or whatever represents the full bi-optical field of vision.
    Would certainly limit the visual quality of games given you also need high refresh rate. But at least you could eliminate some of the barriers to total immersion.
     
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  12. Shifty Geezer

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    An 8K panel for VR would be driven almost certainly by foveated rendering, making the native resolution irrelevant regards graphical demands.
     
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  13. Entropy

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    I think there is good reason to believe that 8k will be driven by "local" material as much or more than by streamed media.
    There is a generation of cell phone sensors being produced right now with 48MP, and rudimentary 8k video recording capability (30Hz) which is supported by the mid to high-end SoCs. What this means (depending on how quickly Apple adopts Sonys IMX586 or close sibling), is that in a couple of years there will be many hundreds of millions of 8k capable recording devices in the hands of consumers that will film everything with it - 50-years anniversaries, kids' parties and so on. And they'll want to see them as recorded, regardless of the limited benefits. Gaming can also be a driver, and Sony knows it. Nothing stops a gamer from simply moving closer to a screen, filling more of their field of view. Generally speaking, it enhances immersion. There are upscaling/rendering tricks that make higher resolution less of a strain, and a clear possibility for the next generation. (If it is the "best" use of resources will be a topic here, I'm sure. :))

    Film buffs will point to a lack of source material. And they are right, at this point in time. But that simply means that adoption of 8k will be driven by other factors such as anticipation of availability of commercial material, gaming and to my mind the most significant - self generated content.
     
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  14. turkey

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    They also did a 8K specific video, trying to see if they could get to 8K



    8K is super demanding, DLSS, temporal injection and other clever techniques would be needed, but with a 4K native input these techniques would produce less artifacts?
     
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  15. Shifty Geezer

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    Not if they've any sense. 8K video will take more space, look no better on the phone, and have slower performance than high framerate 4K. The only real advantage of 8K sensors is 4K/1080p cropping for 'zoom'.

    I don't know a single person who shares phone footage on a TV. Hell, they film everything portrait anyway so that 8K won't ever be better than 4K when displayed on an 8K TV!
     
  16. vipa899

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    Obviously in demanding games 8k is too much. For less demanding games like rez infinite its possible to enjoy 8 or 16k if one wants/can.
     
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  17. Entropy

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    Agree to disagree. I move a bit in photographic circles (where many are taking an interest in video these days), so people who care a bit about what they shoot, and not necessarily for immediate consumption only. And hey, any parent shooting their kids fit that description as well.
    Other groups of people basically only shoot to immediately show off to their friends on social media for instance. YMMV.
    I'm just pointing out that 8k will have interest for other things than just streaming what ever series is popular at the moment, and if you come from a background where that is the only thing that springs to mind, you will underestimate demand.
    I don't care about media streaming, 8k or otherwise, at all.
    But I had to fight down the urge to buy a Samsung 65" 8k TV at $3500, basically for the sole purpose of having a really big high quality canvas for my photos. I will try to hold off for 2-3 years for prices to come down and HDMI 2.1 being fully supported, but there is no question I'll buy one, fully aware that I may never watch any streaming material ever that would take any reasonable advantage of it. (Hell, in five years it will be like 4k today - any TV set larger than kitchen size will be 8k.)
    Gaming is another area that could conceivably drive adoption. People game differently from how they watch films. Moving closer to fill more of your peripheral vision for immersion is quite natural, the limit mainly being where the image starts to break down. 8k moves that limit further out. Ans we all realise that the PS5 will be on the market beyond 2025 so simply having the PS5 tick the 8k box would help drive their display sales long term. (As the PS3 drove not only BluRay but also 1080p sales.)
     
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  18. milk

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    8k gaming would be an absolute disgrace. My eyes hurt just thinking about all the shimmering and pixel crawl you'd get at that resolution, or the absolute vaseline smeared lenses look of modern "Anti Aliasing" if you can even call these blur-fest solutions used today real AA.
    I could never ever game at such a resolution. Wake me up when we are at 32k, although honestly the ideal would be 64k but I'm willing to compromise.
     
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  19. Entropy

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    8k is coming. And I think most of us here are aware that for whatever counts as "normal" use, any benefits will be marginal at best.
    But then again, that is true for most graphics developments these days. Raytracing vs. shader lightning, 60fps vs 120 fps, checkerboard 4k vs "true" 4k, the list can go on. At a glance or in the heat of battle, that is when you actually play a game as opposed to going over screenshots at 200% magnification looking for artifacts, just about everything we discuss at this point in time is nigh on irrelevant.

    It makes sense to keep that in mind when we talk about the minutiae of rendering.
    What I like about 8k TV sets is that it marks a move to remove resolution as a limiting factor at all, just as cell phones have done. I don't think anyone really wants to go back to a time when cell phone screen resolutions were at a level where all text showed pixel level jaggies. It's nice to simply see a technical problem not just reduced but actually solved, and the industry moving on to the next thing on the list to improve and sell to the masses.
     
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  20. Shifty Geezer

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    It varies very much per features you're talking about. 120 Hz is way better than 60 Hz and requires 2x the power, but 60 Hz is good enough if you don't have the power. True 4K is marginally better than reconstructed but requires significantly more cost. Raytracing versus shader lighting is hugely superior, but requires far more power than at all possible in contemporary processors such that somewhat improved solutions are being introduced rather than photorealistic path-traced games which rasterising could never hope to match.

    8K introduces no perceptible difference for most screen sizes, at 4x the rendering cost of 4K. The cost/benefit consideration is hugely skewed against it. Hence legitimate protestations over it being a render target for next gen. The gains in IQ 8K brings, even if everyone had an 8K set, wouldn't be worth the loss in per-pixel rendering quality at 4K, unless everyone moves to 120" displays.Heck, even then. It's not like SD versus 1080p where the clarity difference is huge, or even 4K versus 1080p where the clarity difference is marginal.

    It's not solved if you don't have the rendering power to use it. Everyone and their dog could have an 8K TV but next-gen consoles aren't going to be rendering at what you consider a 'solved resolution' unless you want the game visual quality to be worse than this gen. ;)

    (6 TFs is this gen at 4K. 24 TFs is this gen at 8K. A 12 TF console won't be able to produce PS4 quality games at 8K native. Upscaling from 4K will be the only solution save for some niche games as I've always mentioned. If you want games to look significantly better than this gen, upscaled 4K is probably the best option. That's a hit I'm willing to take, for the few who have large enough sets to notice the lack of clarity, for the greater good)
     
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