Games Programming: Torque, C Variants/Derivatives, etc.

[bigsilly]

Hi! I've read the "similar threads" recommended by the board, and done a bit of searching, and haven't found exactly the kind of information I want. If I've missed it, sorry - don't get too mad please.

Anyway, I bought Torque, the games programming tool kit, thinking it would be an all-encompassing solution. Unfortunately, after having asked around on the forum and reading what little information is out there, it seems that in order to do anything more elaborate than a first/third-person shooter, racer, or other action-game requires proficiency in C++ or C# or C (I don't know what differentiates the three, so I don't know which are applicable to Torque and which are not.)

The documentation available for Torque is about what I'd expect from a $20 software, not a $100 program. There's absolutely no information (that I can find) about adding interfaces, mathematical calculations as a function of input (for example the kind required for stat-based gameplay), about how to add things like character-creation (of the kind done in older RPGs), etc. Asking about this on the forum, the only responses that I get are "learn C" and "yeah, there's no Torque documentation for that stuff."

So my question to the forum is what sources can I go, either online or in print, or in video media (such as tutorials or lectures), that will introduce me immediately to the nitty-gritty of programming in game functions to an existing framework (such as that offered by Torque)? I don't think I need much programming "theory," or elucidation of mathematical principles. I just need to know, for example, how to create a value and hold it, and then process or output it (for example, the number of a character statistic, or the flag of a dialogue tree, or any of the things beyond the scope of a linear shooter.)

If, on the basis of my circumstances, you can think of additional suggestions to me, that would be very helpful too. Feel free to go beyond the immediate scope of my questions - anything that might be availing will be appreciated.

Thanks!!!

 

[Albuquerque]

Man... I don't know what to tell you, maybe someone else will have a better stance.

I interpret your post something like this: You've purchased one of those 'kit cars' that you find in auto magazines, and you're asking how to assemble it -- armed only with a basic set of wrenches, screwdrivers and the knowledge of how to drive a car and perhaps check the oil and fill the tank.

Here's why I think that: questions like "how to create a value and hold it" are core, elementary programming concepts that you simply don't just get out of a box, no matter how much it cost.

In my opinion, the gap between where you want to go and where you are now is massive, and isn't something that you can circumvent with money. Again, in my opinion, your only option really is to sit down and start reading -- lots of reading. Start by learning ANY computer programming / scripting language, like JAVA or VBS or AutoIT or something easy and free. Get to know the really basic stuff, like variables, arrays, objects, input, output, and file handling. Once you think you've got a basic handle on that, you might be able to start moving towards the things you want to do.

Game development is not a point and click affair, there's a massive amount of serious mind effort that goes into writing the code that makes it all work. And sure, you can buy a "framework" such as Torque that can alleviate the bigger, nastier, really math-intensive stuff for you. But you still need a firm grasp on how programming works in order to go from here.

 

[Davros]

i agree with Albuquerque
if he's right and you do a sort of point + click no programming game creator - there are some available
but your arnt going to be making oblivion with them

I don't think I need much programming "theory," or elucidation of mathematical principles.

Seriously you do.......

but an alternative to that....

looks like you want to make an rpg
heres what id do find an open source game thats close to what you want to make and mess about with it (btw go for a simple one)
rename stats, change the way they are calculated (eg: change a + to a - see what effect it has), change dialoge in dialogue trees, change textures on characters, above all have some fun you'll pick a fair bit up just by sort of osmossis

Heres one Korax its based on the hexen source code (doom engine)
http://sourceforge.net/projects/korax

 

[Richard]

If you want to learn programming and you don't want to read, try Colobot - a game that teaches programming.

 

[....]

In my opinion, the gap between where you want to go and where you are now is massive, and isn't something that you can circumvent with money.

Actually with enough money he can hire programmers, artists, etc. and simply design, manage and oversee the project

 

[bigsilly]

Thanks for the replies, I'll try the links you all have given.

As an outsider to programming (presently), I can't seem to understand why, say, programming in pauses that bring up interfaces would require anything particularly advanced in terms of mathematics or theory. But it's various things of this nature that I'd like to learn. I'm not trying to make only an RPG, or primarily an RPG, but really just wanting to learn how to program or create various trademark features of many different genres, in order to develop a repertoire of features that I can adapt and conflate as is appropriate for future projects.

I learned Basic and a bit of Pascal in school, but that was years ago.

In any case, I don't mind reading, I'd just like to know what I ought to read. I've bought a few books in the past few days, but they all seem a little dated.

 

[epicstruggle]

In any case, I don't mind reading, I'd just like to know what I ought to read. I've bought a few books in the past few days, but they all seem a little dated.

You need to decide how far you want to go. If your serious about learning, you need learn from the bottom up. There really isnt any easy way to game programming.

Start with an introduction to C, move on to C++. Start picking up a few math books: Calc, matrices, geometry. Get a data structures and algorithm book. There are probably another dozen of so areas where you can get books for, Id suggest that instead you go to humus' site and look at his initial demos and start reproducing them. When you get confused, research that area. Here is the site address: http://www.humus.ca/index.php?page=3D

Hope this helps.

 

[bigsilly]

Hi, thanks for your reply! I wasn't after an "easy way to program," that would be kind of a silly idea, I was just after the appropriate way to begin learning, since I've learnt very quickly that Torque is intended to be a base engine rather than a programming suite or system.

You can understand that it would be rather confusing, to a first-time programmer, trying to figure out what commands could possibly govern a pause that applies only to gameplay but not to interfaces or certain commands, or, as another example, how to even begin to program a character-creation system. But the books and links have made it clear that one doesn't begin on that level. I confess that I can't understand how the very basic exercises that I'm not doing in my spare time will help me to achieve the more complex functions that I'd like to experiment with - but, just the same, I'm doing them, and the basic arguments and processes are at least becoming familiar.

I haven't gotten to anything particularly mathematical yet - at least nothing that involved "calc, matrices and geometry." But I think I can foresee how some of that knowledge might be necessary if, for example, I want to edit the code for a 3D interface (for example, selecting units with a mouse in an RTS-type game.) Is that correct, or am I mistaken?

I have a number of books now, and the suggestions and links that you've all given have been very helpful. Thanks again!

 

[Johnny_Physics]

I think you can get pretty far with Torque by only using scripts, but to use those you need to get some programming fundamentals under you belt. Start out doing some simple command line applications in C/C++ to get a feel for how and where things are placed, what they do and how to properly use them. It doesn't need to be graphical at first, just something so that you soon can return to torque and program some controls to toggle animations or something like that. Then you should try to figure out how and why things work like they do, what rules govern them and so on, that's important because when something doesn't work you'll have a chance of solving your problem with knowledge instead of treating programming like some kind of moody copy-paste voodoo.

A friend of mine actually got very far by doing this, he was a graphics artist with no programming under his belt, but just by toying around like I described above, and by reading, thinking, asking the right questions and listening to the answers he got a whole lot of stuff done all by himself.