Game Devs are overworked and underpaid?
- Thread starter Deepak
- Start date
I thought most jobs of a non senior-executive or political nature were overworked and underpaid. At least game devs aren't as underpaid as many!
IME having done a little SE work outside games, most SE Jobs don't have the same sort of demands as game engineering, as demanding as they are there just isn't the same sustained crunch.
I've said this before I think it's gotten as bad as it is now, because of the speed of growth the industry has experienced. 20 years ago I still did marathon sessions to ship games, but since total dev time was 3 months, you rarely had to sustain it more than a few weeks, and since team sizes were small one person working 100hrs a week got a lot more done.
Now it's more of an expectation that people do it, even though IME it's often overall detrimental to the dev process and in the end the game. Sustaining 70+hours a week for months on end with no weekends doesn't make you a better contributor, but it gets noticed if you don't do it by management.
This industry ia still too in love with the myth of the heroic contributor working for days straight and saving the game at the 11th hour. The reality is these types of effort tend to do more damage than good on large teams with very large codebases.
I've said this before I think it's gotten as bad as it is now, because of the speed of growth the industry has experienced. 20 years ago I still did marathon sessions to ship games, but since total dev time was 3 months, you rarely had to sustain it more than a few weeks, and since team sizes were small one person working 100hrs a week got a lot more done.
Now it's more of an expectation that people do it, even though IME it's often overall detrimental to the dev process and in the end the game. Sustaining 70+hours a week for months on end with no weekends doesn't make you a better contributor, but it gets noticed if you don't do it by management.
This industry ia still too in love with the myth of the heroic contributor working for days straight and saving the game at the 11th hour. The reality is these types of effort tend to do more damage than good on large teams with very large codebases.
So, it is a combination of bad project managers and an awful industry culture. It's the same for software development in general, not just games, from what I gather. It sounds really awful, TBH...... But it has been that way as long as I can remember reading about it. It certainly seems like a artificial expectation too, because I have a hard time believing that games can't be made with a less ridiculous schedule.
archangelmorph
Veteran
Well To be fair I don't think the problem is as severe in the UK..
Most companies over here probably wouldn't get you in any longer than 45-55 hrs per week and maybe a months worth of weekends when deadlines are looming..
This is still a problem based entirely around extremely piss-poor development management practices and the use of arcane development models on projects which should never have been done that way.. Thankfully things are slowly changing and maturing and alot more companies realise that productivity can be improved dramatically by effective and agile methods of development which seem to be much more well suited to the nature of the deliverables...
I know in my company overtime tends to be pretty minimal across all the projects since the developments teams are so well managed (we use very effective development models) and in the few cases where it isn't it's mostly due to breakdown in communication between us and a publisher, due to things like time zone differences, delayed feedback etc..
Most companies over here probably wouldn't get you in any longer than 45-55 hrs per week and maybe a months worth of weekends when deadlines are looming..
This is still a problem based entirely around extremely piss-poor development management practices and the use of arcane development models on projects which should never have been done that way.. Thankfully things are slowly changing and maturing and alot more companies realise that productivity can be improved dramatically by effective and agile methods of development which seem to be much more well suited to the nature of the deliverables...
I know in my company overtime tends to be pretty minimal across all the projects since the developments teams are so well managed (we use very effective development models) and in the few cases where it isn't it's mostly due to breakdown in communication between us and a publisher, due to things like time zone differences, delayed feedback etc..
archangelmorph
Veteran
That's not completely the case..
My girlfriend work's in the finance sector and it's pretty clear that they are paid extremely well..
If I ever get bored of games development maybe i'll quit and become an investment banker..
Hmph! as if i'll ever get bored!
tongue_of_colicab
Veteran
Maybe a stupid question, but do the long hours also count for the graphic and sound artists? because I hear everyone talk about the code part.
Its the same - Ibankers can easily do 90 hours.That's not completely the case..
My girlfriend work's in the finance sector and it's pretty clear that they are paid extremely well..
If I ever get bored of games development maybe i'll quit and become an investment banker..
Hmph! as if i'll ever get bored!
archangelmorph
Veteran
Granted the hours are considerable but it's not the same since at the moment I could work 20-40 hours overtime and not get paid for a single one..
As an IBanker i'd be looking at a considerable amount of overtime pay PLUS performance related bonus..
So the difference is "Overworked and underpaid" vs "Overworked and considerably overpaid"..
Not much of a contest if money if your biggest incentive..
Thankfully mine is job satisfaction above all else..
They do mostly damage on any project where you do sustained crunch for more then 1-2weeks on end. I've yet to meet any person whose productivity doesn't dramaticaly drop after a few 16-18hour work days in a row - not to even mention morale and other issues in teams.ERP said:
Yes, and designers, and often project/other managers. Programmers just usually get the brunt of pressure/responsibility.tongue_of_colicab said:
tongue_of_colicab
Veteran
But arnt there laws againt this? Atleast in Holland im sure your not allowed to work 16+ hours a day and they cant fire you if you refuse either. Ofcouse they probably find a other way to get rid of you...
Fu3lFr3nzy
Regular
Not in US
. Im friends with a couple of RN's and if theyre needed, they'll have to do 48hr shifts (thats 2 days nonstop, not 8x6 )And at the end of the day, the employer is loosing money and is producing less stuff from long crunch times where he thought he could save more and increase productivity.
A long crunch is economically a waste of money and will likely make your game miss the deadline.
tongue_of_colicab
Veteran
Dont they have collective labour agreements in the USA? were all sorts of jobs have their own set of rules regarding salary, working hours etc? I thought things like that were pretty common these days.
They really aren't needed, but that is going to go way off topic.
I guess I'm the only one that finds 'overworked, underpaid' a bit crass, it is almost twice the median income of a family of four in the US. I also presume that includes artists and QA, engineers are paid quite a bit more, at least in my area (commercial software). Perhaps game companies can get away with cheaper pay because of the 'glamour'.
I have done my share of 100hr weeks, it is a necessary evil to make deadlines sometimes. As has been repeated, extended crunches are bad news. I have seen extended forced crunches have huge negative impact (like a decimating exodus of senior engineers) on projects. At some point companies will have to figure that out. I've seen incentive packages reward hours and not milestones, and people will put in some insane hours, but that doesn't mean they are working.
Anyhow, 'overworked and underpaid' would be the people who built Hoover Dam; Or the ones out all day harvesting fields; Or the children in Pakistan factories. Not some geek sitting in an air conditioned office, drinking Peet's coffee, trying to close out the last 'hard' bug.
Don't mean to be overly negative, but I think this thread needed some perspective.
There are lots and lots of laws on all sorts of things, but just because there's laws, doesn't mean they're upheld! It's a lot of trouble and effort for an employee to stand up for their rights, and for pretty much everyone who grumbles about working conditions, it's more than their job's worth. At the end of the day, they need the money to pay the bills. The security of a job you have counts for a lot. And remember that a company can react to action on your part without doing anything unlawful. If you upset the managers, they can make your worklife very miserable, and then you have the worry of references that label you a trouble maker when you go look for employment elsewhere.
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