Forced Parity? - Destiny edition *spawn*

Discussion in 'Console Industry' started by DieH@rd, Sep 16, 2014.

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  1. DieH@rd

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    Digital Foundry confirmed that both versions of the game are INDENTICAL in every way [except framepacing on xbone], with zero indications that better PS4 GPU was utilized to produce better effects.

    To me that is clear sign of "forced parity".
     
  2. BRiT

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    Or perhaps you could be less of a blind forum warrior and think maybe they're limited by the CPUs in both nextgen systems or perhaps they were limited by being a cross-gen game (ps3 limiting factor) or perhaps they just didn't have the developer time to truly optimize all platforms. Nah, let's blindly subscribe to the fanboy / forum warrior mentality that it was forced parity since that suits your bias and agenda.
     
  3. djskribbles

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    It could be any of the above, including forced parity. I don't think it's a CPU issue though, but I could be wrong. And I don't know if optimization time was an issue either, unless less time was spent on PS4, because even the alpha way back in June ran near flawlessly and was not much different than the retail version (minus the frame pacing issue).

    My guess is that they planned to have a similar experience on all platforms (so limited by cross-gen), and they used the PS4 version as the target (not pushing it too far), then using the rest of the time getting XB1 up to par/optimizing last-gen systems the best they could. So in a way I guess that I am saying that it was somewhat forced parity, and perhaps limited by time.
     
    #3 djskribbles, Sep 16, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 17, 2014
  4. Silent_Buddha

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    Going with the theory of forced parity (which I don't believe), then it would be turn about is fair play, yes? As everyone would have to admit that if forced parity was a thing, last gen Sony forced developers to have parity with the PS3. Since PS3 was seriously lagging X360 in all multiplats until after the first 2-3 years.

    And I guess this generation the conspiracy theorists would conclude that Microsoft must be forcing developers to have parity with the XBO.

    Yeah, I'm not buying either one. I'm sure developers were forced to spend 2-3x the time and resources to bring PS3 to parity with X360 because Sony forced them to, rather than it just being a good business decision to have party across platforms. Yeah, no...

    Just like Microsoft can somehow force developer's to limit things to XBO levels. What are they going to do? Threaten to not allow the game to release on the platform with the much lower install base? Laughable.

    Regards,
    SB
     
  5. djskribbles

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    Both situations are forced parity, no? Whether Sony/MS force it, or if it's simply a developer decision, it's still forced parity.

    Personally, I don't think that MS or Sony are or ever have forced parity per-se. They simply think their system is capable of more and offer help and encourage third-parties to improve their games (which is what you'd expect from either company). Subsequently, third-party developers try to please company X by making their game similar on both platforms. I don't see how it's unthinkable that this happens at least sometimes.
     
  6. iroboto

    iroboto Daft Funk
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    Forced parity?
    Difficult to actually prove - it just fits what you may want to see.

    But playing the game of assumptions we know that:

    1) X1 came in at 900p and lacked all the HUD features of PS4 until MS came by with June SDK, Kinect Reserve removed and additional help for the beta. Frame pacing bug was resolved on PS4 from Alpha at this time.

    2) If (1) never occurred no one would say anything about how much further PS4 could be pushed, so that doesn't make any sense either. No one would question how much further PS4 could have gone, they just would have accepted it as PS4 was maxed, and X1 had to be downgraded to compete.

    I don't understand Forced Parity Argument for Destiny when this game was more or less treated as an exclusive for Sony.
     
  7. djskribbles

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    Being treated as a Sony exclusive has little to nothing to do with Bungie. The deal was probably made between Activision and Sony. Much like Respawn and Titanfall... they had no idea that Titanfall was going to be a full exclusive (was planned to be a timed exclusive) and showed disappointment via twitter. EA and MS made the deal without them knowing.
    Bungie having a good relationship with MS just further raises suspicion.
     
  8. Pixel

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    Its arithmetically simple to understand. Certainly the game is not making full use of PS4's stronger shading capacity. We are talking identical family of gpu architecture. The visuals produced only require 12 CU to reproduce at 1080p at 30fps.

    The last thing Bungie wants to do is further harm the relationship it has with the portion of the Xbox community that felt betrayed by their going multiplatform and exclusive PS4 conent. And its not exactly an A+ quality game quite yet. Also in some cases we saw with Tombraider having slightly improved image quality on PS4 seemed to disproportionately negatively effect Xbox One sales.
     
  9. function

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    The key thing in this conspiracy bullshit is the word "forced".

    As in .... "forced".

    We can see from the Beta that the XBone version had not managed to the reach the goal that Bungie had set for nextgen.

    If the PS4 version had been cut to 1600 x 900 to match the Full Boned version, the conspiracists might have had some room to manoeuvre. But the fact the MS scrambled to help the XBone version improve up to the standard (sort of - frame stutter sucks) of the "marketing contracted" PS4 version shows that the PS4 version wasn't 'forced' down, the XBone version was raised up.

    Anyone using the word "forced" at this point is fuckwit.
     
  10. ToTTenTranz

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    A visit to the new-gen console comparisons of cross-platform titles at Digital Foundry show that the PS4 version almost always shows an advantage in graphics quality, even if such differences are hard to detect. To raise suspicions of "forced parity" (whatever the reason) is just a logical conclusion.

    AFAIK, being CPU-limited could stop the PS4 from achieving a framerate higher than 30FPS, but it would make little difference if the more powerful console were to use a higher rendering resolution, for example. Which is BTW what we see in most cross-platform titles between xbone and ps4.
     
    #10 ToTTenTranz, Sep 17, 2014
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  11. function

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    Please provide the arithmetic proof that shows that parity was "forced".
     
  12. function

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    If the PS4 version almost always shows an advantage in graphics quality (it does???) then how is that "parity"??? Let alone "forced parity"???

    Do you actually know what logic actually is? Your statement can only ever evaluate to being false!?

    Either I'm going mad, or .... fuck. I don't know.
     
  13. HTupolev

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    ToTTenTranz's argument, recast to be more explicit, is:

    Because the PS4 version usually (and seemingly ought to) shows an advantage in graphics quality, it is reasonable to suspect that parity may have been deliberate in cases where the PS4 version does not have an advantage in graphics quality (the example here being Destiny).
     
  14. ToTTenTranz

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    First of all, I think you should to calm down and stop calling names to people who simply have a different opinion than yours.

    Yes, the PS4 consistently shows a better measurable image quality and/or substantially faster/steadier framerates than the xbone in multiplatform games.
    The fact that, after 11 months of games and comparisons between the two consoles, you're still unaware of this.. then perhaps you're judging too fast with too little knowledge on the subject?

    As for the logic:
    A - Almost all multiplatform PS4 games show either faster framerates, higher resolution or others than the Xbone equivalents.
    B - Destiny shows almost the very same visuals and framerates between the two consoles, save for a few, rare discrepancies below the 30 FPS AFAICS.

    The logic couldn't be simpler, really...
     
  15. Pixel

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    You mistake me. I'm not throwing in with the "forced" lot. I meant its arithmetically easy to see that the game does not need more than ~12 CU to render the visuals of Destiny. The visuals do not make near full use of PS4's shading capability. I don't think parity was the result of pressure from MS. Instead the studio felt it was in their best interest to make a visually identical game, and I gave some possible reasons why in the previous post
     
    #15 Pixel, Sep 17, 2014
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  16. Shortbread

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    I have read the worlds (skyboxes) are beautiful – but the planets are voided of life. No type of animals/beast/creatures living entities insight. And that Destiny single-player campaign is somewhat dull, because of the lack of enemies (sparseness).

    A game editor commented that both consoles shouldn’t have (had) any technical problems with such a barren game… ouch!

    I wonder if Bungie felt from a technical standpoint (rather than an artistic one), to keep the levels sparse of life-like creatures/enemies? By making sure all platforms (XB360/PS3/XB1/PS4) had the same gaming experience, regardless of platform choice. Negating any negative talk of one gaming system being more robust (a live) than the other.

    IMHO, I think Bungie went for a more unified gaming experience for all users… not so much pushing the console parity agenda. What we perceive as parity is just the nature of that decision…
     
  17. iroboto

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    Maybe the games are dialed back because the game is peer 2 peer? Overload it from a CPU perspective and game experience breaks down for all players involved.

    As long as we don't mention the word "forced". As this is impossible to prove without evidence of such an arrangement; I'm fine with parity.

    As for ps4 trend of continually besting x1 in the graphics department there has not been enough data to suggest that the gap in performance would stay permanently fixed as how it began. We have no real measure yet of how close both machine should be of each other. Games take 2-3 years to develop and MS has still yet to release their next API-Xbox is hardly a settled product to measure yet Sony has been strong with their GNM since launch. June SDK is the closest thing they have to dx12 according to previous dev diaries we've posted on x1 tech threads. June was 3 months ago.

    You will not have a valid comparison until things settle down entirely for both consoles. At this rate we are looking well into 2016 for that to happen.
     
    #17 iroboto, Sep 17, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 17, 2014
  18. Rangers

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    X1 has 7% faster GPU clock (this will help the entire front end which should be identical to PS4), 9% faster CPU clock, almost certainly an extra half gig of RAM currently usable by games, in theory a good deal higher peak bandwidth (with strict unfortunate 32 mb restrictions of course). It's not all cut and dried. Those could help close the 40% GPU gap in other ways (though it might be hard to pinpoint any in the case of Destiny). I remember in the Xbox architects interview, they mentioned having prior experience with GPGPU that was more bandwidth limited than compute limited. And I also remember in Anandtech's Haswell review, where Iris Pro's EDRAM really helped was GPGPU benchmarks.

    I'd say more to the point Destiny still has prior gen roots. IMO it looks very very nice, but it's not really stretching next gen legs. I'll be more interested in the really heavy duty games that will really load the hardware coming up, Far Cry 4 and GTA V come to mind.

    In the end people need to understand developers are not console warriors but they're going to take the easy way out. Best case for PS4 is probably typically going to be 1080P vs 900P, as that's an easy way to do things, key word, easy. Plenty of multiplatform games back in 2003 didn't utilize Xbox's vastly superior capabilities vs PS2. Almost all of them, in fact. Rare was the Splinter Cell that looked a generation better on Xbox.

    Anyways maybe some more technical people could speak to this question that seems key here, if you have 40% more shaders sitting there whats some easy ways to throw extra visual goodies on screen? My guess is it wont actually add that much noticeable to the visuals though. Things like SSAO. But it could satiate some forum warriors.

    You could make an argument making more powerful hardware is a losing game, because multiplats will just default to the lowest common denominator and the more powerful hardware you as platform holder spent extra on will typically not be utilized. I dont agree with it on the whole (imo PS4 is selling well almost entirely because of it's hardware), but it's a sentiment that has some validity.
     
  19. NRP

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    Fucking forum warriors. It's not enough that your platform is demonstrably, unarguably superior. Nope. Some of you still insist on being victims in some forced parity conspiracy theory bullshit. What the hell is wrong with you guys? When will you freaking grow up? God damn.

    No wonder devs don't post here much anymore. The console forum is a trash heap, masquerading under the guise of "technical discussion".
     
  20. Pixel

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    Indeed you could make the reverse case that Destiny doesn't play towards Xbox One's hardware strengths. Including as you pointed out its superior peak memory bandwidth. There is parity being made on both sides.
     
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