Fighter planes, part 4

Frank

Certified not a majority
Veteran
As you all know, I really like weapons from a technological perspective. I like gadgets, and I really love weapon systems as those are generally (next to "get rich" schemes) where most of human ingenuity is focused. And, fortunately, they're for the last half century mostly things any country should have, and not for actually killing people.

Perhaps only next to affordable rockets that can seriously take us into space, jet fighters and their counters are the ultimate techno-porn.

(It's a shame DemoCoder doesn't visit around here very often anymore, as he was the perfect sparring partner. :) )

Anyway, back to business.

Part one is scrubbed,

part two is here,

part three is here,

and, it's time for part four!



As predicted by many, the JSF is by now about as expensive (if not more so) than an F-22, if other countries are even allowed to purchase that plane. And stealth has become something that probably works against medium-technology threats. The low-tech adversaries saw them all along, and the high-tech adversaries developed effective counters.

So, many countries (like the Netherlands, even while they invested billions in the development and "preferred partner program"), ask themselves if the JSF might, eventually, somehow, deliver any bang for it's very high buck.

And most aren't convinced.

Then again, the best bang-for-buck plane available (the Saab Gripen), doesn't have much sales either, as do the Typhoon and Raphaele. Although the Su-27 derivatives still seem to be on a roll.


So, what plane does a country like the Netherlands (with an aging F-16 force, and part of the NATO) buy as a replacement?

This is made a lot more difficult by the thing, that their main missions (killing other fighters and bombing people with high-tech defenses in place) haven't been done in decades, if ever with these parameters.

For one, I would love to see it all in action, and take score. But at the same time, I'm very happy that doesn't happen. But that leaves us without any actual benchmarks.
 
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gripen
ef2000
su27/35 with western engines/avionics

ps; if you email saab they will send you a hardback book on the grippen or they did about 18moths ago
 
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Manned fighter planes are a waste in todays world of autonomous UCAVs. They are cheaper to buy, cheaper to fly, can stay aloft longer then a human can stay awake; and in regards to maneuverability: they can make turns that would literally liquefy the internals of a human.

I don't think it'll be too much longer until almost all combat pilots are given the boot, kicking and screaming I'm sure. hehe
 
jamming could be a problem though

ps: if the nl wanted a pure air superiority fighter they should phone northrop and say "deal with us and the f-23 will live"
 
Now I dont know anything about which plane is better but I think the F35 is a waste of money in every way. We are paying big time for manufacturing contracts we probably wont even get and we'll end up with a plane that is a watered down version of what the US will be selling to themselves.

Personally I think we should just buy a SU (and maybe even the new fulkrum) on the basis that it just looks freakin' cool and its the only plane capable of doing the Cobra stunt. And its Russian which means its wrong and that is why we should get one.

Which plane is the better is useless for the NL. First of all the chances of a real war are basically non existant. Second, our government is so slow that even if there is a war by the time they made a decision we will either be conquered, or the war will already be over. And last what is the use in having a fighter if the first thing a enemy will do is bomb the crap out of you with rockets.

So its basically a case of prestige (which I think is fine btw) and in that case I think we should just buy the one that is coolest. You know, take it around airshows and all doing stunts. Just some country promotion.
 
As predicted by many, the JSF is by now about as expensive (if not more so) than an F-22
The US has been quite aggressive on pricing future deliveries the F35 for the partners, though. Perhaps in anticipation of an eventual F22 cancellation. Norway, for instance, seems to have gotten theirs (2015 delivery) at less than half cost of a plane built today. Of course, there might be quite a bit of politics there, but with increased volumes and lifetime servicing it might not be that bad of a deal for the US after all.
 
Manned fighter planes are a waste in todays world of autonomous UCAVs.

"Mounted machine guns are a waste in today's world of heat-seeking missiles," they said back when the F-4 Phantom was being designed. Then Vietnamese Mig pilots figured out how to evade Sidewinders and shot our pilots out of the sky, and the mounted machine gun returned and is still around today (it's internally mounted on every version of the JSF except the USMC model).
 
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