Fallout 3: Oblivion with guns and perfect review scores

Discussion in 'PC Gaming' started by Frank, Oct 26, 2008.

  1. homerdog

    homerdog donator of the year
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    Please please please someone tell me how to get rid of the mouse lag!:evil:

    I've disabled vsync and tried setting max pre-rendered frames to 1 and 0 to no avail :(. I got the same shit in Oblivion but disabling vsync always fixed it.

    *Edit* nHancer to the rescue! I had to force vsync off with nHancer to get rid of the lag. The setting in the launcher options is borked for me. I'll take sceen tearing over mouse lag any day. FWIW I have the Steam version.
     
    #81 homerdog, Oct 30, 2008
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  2. Neb

    Neb Iron "BEAST" Man
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    I have no mouse lag but if its to any help then perhaps this.

    In your "...\documents\My Games\Fallout3\FalloutPrefs.cfg"

    It would be to set this to your minimum framerate.
     
  3. Neb

    Neb Iron "BEAST" Man
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    Just in the beginning but its nice IMO and wel ldone with several laughing points. Great homour. Though they could have made animations smoother especially animation transitions. Also I need to figure out how to bog down the framerate to 30fps becouse 60fps solid just feels way to fast making it hard for me to aim at them.
     
  4. KimB

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    Nah, you don't even need to get the power armor for FO1&2 to be easy. All you do need to do is focus on getting your primary weapon skill up early. Once you get to the point you can get 95% eye shots, it's all cake from there. Pretty much the only way it's remotely challenging for a while is if you go for either the fast attack trait that prevents targeted attacks, or unarmed and don't know where to get a power fist.

    Of course, getting to the point where FO1&2 are easy does require that you understand the game mechanics, and it does require that you don't try to bite off more than you can chew, but usually that's handled pretty well by just following the NPC's. The first time through these games were usually pretty damned hard just because people don't understand how to work with the combat system.
     
  5. N00b

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    Nice read. Quite amusing. The following made me :lol::
     
  6. Randell

    Randell Senior Daddy
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    its an RPG, he was shooting him with a low powered pistol, how many shots do bosses take in FPS's, how many sword strikes does it take to take down a high level npc in an MMO? I don't understnad the reaction to what appears to be normal game beahviour to me!
     
  7. pcchen

    pcchen Moderator
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    I find it amusing when people are arguing about RPG's "strange" behavior. Actually, the whole "hit point" thing is just a way to simulate real situations. In a typical RPG, a guy with high hp can withstand quite a beating, even with lethal weapons (e.g. 30 shots at head). That does not make much sense. However, traditionally the hit point design in RPG is trying to simulate an average case where you may need to fire 30 shots to kill that guy. It's not literally a guy can withstand 30 head shots.

    Of course, the problem now is that many RPG are going more "realistic." That's where the problem comes: you are actually seeing 30 shots hit that guy's head! So the traditional "average 30 shots to kill that guy" simulation does not fit very well anymore.

    I don't know what's a better solution, though. Maybe it's possible to make complex animations where the "30 head shot guy" constantly dodging bullets fast and only "hit dead" when his HP becomes zero.

    Of course, it's not just a RPG thing. Almost all games these days have the same problem. Be it RTS, FPS, or even action games. For example, you can see infantries firing at a tank with machine guns in RTS games, and successfully destroy a tank!
     
  8. EasyRaider

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    1) That was not a boss.
    2) FPS and MMO games are irrelevant, this is Fallout.
    3) Have you played Fallout? If not, your opinion doesn't count, and you suck. :razz:
     
  9. obonicus

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    This is true of when the HP metaphor came up, in say, D&D and possibly Wargames before it. It's an abstraction, not meant to suggest that the barbarian can soak multiple axe blows to the head, but a general indication of 'tougness'. In fact, generally you'd describe the outcome -based- on the damage done. But games took the abstraction and flipped it; if you're hitting someone in the head, you're really hitting them in the head, and the game is calculating damage based on that.

    But it's not like the original FO avoided it; they had a whole crippling mechanic, but you could hit someone in the eyes with a high-powered plasma bolt more than once, especially if you can't score a critical hit.
     
    #89 obonicus, Oct 30, 2008
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  10. hoho

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    In F2 it was "solved" by making headshots do much more damage than shots in other parts of the body. Also it was much harder to actually hit badguys to the head.
     
  11. L233

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    RPG combat works because it's an abstract, it's merely a representation of action and the point of this abstract simulation is to enable interactivity on the level of tactics and decision making. When dealing with an abstraction of combat, it's easy to accept with blatant nonsense while still maintaining the neccessary suspense of disbelief.

    Mixing RPG-style statistical abstraction and visceral FPS-style real-time combat action is problematic. It kinda sorta worked in Mass Effect because the whole SciFi space-age-crap-armor-and-shield-technology stuff made it somewhat plausible that baddies could stand a hundred bullets.

    From what I've seen of FO3 so far, it turned out really awkward. Someone surving multiple headshots with gibs and blood splattered all over the place? The problem is that the presentation is too realistic for the abstracted stuff that is actually happening, it just doesn't fit together properly. It looks like they decided to make FPS-combat and then tack on RPG-elements - which is probably how it happened.
     
  12. obonicus

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    SWAT 3 in X-Com? I'd buy that too (it's not like anyone's making first-person squad tactics games anymore, now with Sierra dead and R6 tied up in Vegas). It's harder to pinpoint XCom's genre, though. It probably in the same genre JA2 and a handful of turn-based squad tactics games (like Silent Storm) -- I assume we're excluding the base-building, ship-hunting 'overworld' view. Is that what defines its genre? What about Fallout Tactics, though, which had turn-based and real-time combat? If you move into real-time does it automatically become an RTS, like Company of Heroes? What was Myth? There's no such confusion with RPGs; turn-based or real-time, it's still an RPG. You might want to add descriptors (TB-WRPG vs RT-WRPG) but that doesn't make them different genres any more than UT is a different genre from CS.

    Think about it; did you play Fallout for the combat, or for the wide open world, character building and multiple choices? Combat was always the weakest link. And again, I play through Fallout 2 almost every year (haven't this year). It's almost certainly my favorite game ever. Doesn't make it perfect.

    It's difficult to establish a taxonomy, naturally. I think, though, that Baldur's Gate, Planescape:Torment, Fallout, The Witcher and Oblivion have a lot in common, more than they do with, say, JRPGs and more than they do with FPS' or RTS' or even Squad Tactics games like XCom. Of course, RPG these days is pretty broad, as it could ostensibly cover games with 'RPG Elements', which only makes figuring out the genre even more difficult. Are Deus Ex or System Shock RPGs? The first is usually described as an FPS and the second, I've seen called survival horror, I've seen called an FPS, but never not an RPG. The games I mentioned above, I've never seen anyone not call them RPGs (maybe L233?).

    I'm not saying first-person is the solution to Fallout's perspective problem. I'm saying that even for the time Fallout wasn't technically impressive. The rose-colored glasses are off; at the time people were complaining about graphics, and rightfully so, and more so for FO2. BIS was never that technically proficient: they still aren't, if you consider their offshoots. BIS' least-buggy games were the ones they built on Bioware's engines (a much more technically proficient, though IMO soulless company) and the trend extended to Troika (RIP) and Obsidian. Bethesda, for all its content problems, always felt more solid, even back in the Daggerfall days.

    So we're striving for adequate? Bethesda certainly can do adequate, so I assume we have nothing to complain about Fallout 3.

    People take Fallout as an example of how RPGs should be; just go to the rpg codex to see for yourself. But Fallout certainly wasn't the epitome of turn-based isometric combat. That honor goes to JA2 or the first two XComs. I have no desire to cling to decade-old gameplay conventions; true, FO3 done with something like the Silent Storm engine would have preferable, but I certainly would not have liked to see the fallout combat mechanics again, only now in 3d, which is what Van Buren suggested (I also wonder how well FO3 could have been done by BIS without the Troika guys).

    I think there's an unhealthy amount of nostalgia involving these games, as if anything played in your youth is automatically better than anything today.
     
  13. Cartoon Corpse

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    have you killed all unecessary processes?

    and tried various random things like turning hardware sound acceleration off in dxdiag. (that was a fix for an earlier game for me so i just mean things LIKE that)
     
  14. Randell

    Randell Senior Daddy
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    1) What was he then?
    2) Not at all irrelevent - Fallot 3 is a sci-fi based RPG - how are comparisons to FPS's and MMO's or indeed any other CRPG irrelevent
    3) and you're a child :p
     
  15. EasyRaider

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    That was not the case with Fallout. HP represented actual damage.

    Anyway, the original games didn't have that great combat. I don't play RPGs for the combat. In Fallout 2 I quickly reached a point where I gave up and began to avoid fights. Even so, it was one of my best RPG experiences.

    With what I've seen of the writing in FO3, I can't see myself enjoying it at all.
     
  16. EasyRaider

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    1) I don't know. It doesn't matter.
    2) My point is, you didn't see any such shit in the predecessors. There's no excuse for making damage behave that much worse.
    3) It's "you're". Learn grammar. :razz:
     
    #96 EasyRaider, Oct 30, 2008
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  17. Richard

    Richard Mord's imaginary friend
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    My remark about that is that in your comparison you forgot to include a perspective/camera change. Isometric or 3D bird's eye is just technology with very minor gameplay changes (rotating the camera to look "behind" obstructions, etc.). Changing from overhead to character focused changes the gameplay a lot.

    Well, Fallout: Tactics was never labeled as a straight-up RPG and it wasn't named "Fallout 3". It is definitely a TB/RTS game akin to Space Hulk or RB6 except with bird's eye view instead of FP.

    Yes but I'm not even using the TB card. I'm only mentioning the change in perspective as a major gamplay changer. UT and CS, no matter how different they may play (arcade vs "realistic") they are still FPS games.

    No one is saying it's a perfect game. Heck, my favourite game EVA is PS:Torment. I played FO for the RPG elements: building a character, assembling a party, talking to NPCs, buying/finding loot. The story, ambiance and intelligent dialogue sucked me in so I bought FO2 for more of the same with some refinements. Combat wasn't even on my radar. Kind of like Diablo now that I think about it. The combat itself is pretty boring, just click on a red speck on the screen. All the fun comes from gaining XP and loot, advancing your character, getting a bigger weapon, etc.

    Contrast that to ToEE. My two main reasons for buying that was the combat and the most accurate rendition of D&D 3e rules. People complained the story sucked, that the dialogue was bland, that the quests were boiler-plate. Fine, that's not what the game was spearheading.

    Agreed. It's all about managing expectations. For instance, I think Oblivion is a pretty good game but it doesn't even rank on my top 20 RPGs of all time.

    Huh? Both games are routinely called FPS-RPGs. I.e. RPGs played from a first person perspective with a higher than usual (compared to RPGs) focus on combat. Compare the Ultima games I through VIII with Ultima Underworld I & II. Both series are RPGs but the later's FP perspective changes the gameplay quite a bit. That's part of the reason why Ultima IX failed, as it tried to blend the two gameplay styles.

    Sure, it wasnt technically impressive but it wasn't bad or below par. For all its bugs even PoR released 4 years later had more bugs and was visually confusing. FO had some of the best death animations using more memory for them than other games' whole animation budget. The SPECIAL system was also a LOT more complex than the AD&D rendition in BG1. Dialogue trees were longer, taking up more memory, etc. FO2 was behind its time but only because they didn't really advance the engine. So while Fallout wasn't the epitome of graphics it wasn't as bad as you were portraying it and it certainly wasn't as buggy as PoR, a game that if you installed it anywhere except the default path it could wipe out your Windows partition.

    Compare the FO bugs with the ToEE bugs. Performance-wise, that thing brings down a C2D with 2gb of ram to single digit framerate on the elemental nodes.

    It's not about striving for anything. It's managing expectations. I don't berate Tetris for having poor dialogue any more than I scold Oblivion for having crappy puzzles, or Deus Ex for having crappy colision detection. Oblivion, as presented by Beth themselves, is an RPG so I am going to criticise them on those points like: crappy dialogue, low variety of VO, fugly face textures when they absolutely must do a massive close-up whenever you talk to anyone, levelling bugs, etc.

    For me, ToEE takes that crown but I see what you mean.
     
  18. MfA

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    That was more a result of having to push it out of the door than anything else. Troika could push out games at an amazing pace, but time to correct major design decisions they did not have.

    They didn't anticipate pathing taking so long it had to run either threaded or via cooperative multitasking ... and when they found out it would have taken too much time to fix.
     
  19. homerdog

    homerdog donator of the year
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    Do you use vsync?

    Those tweaks did not help, only forcing vsync off through the NVCP "fixes" it. I get a consistent 80+ FPS in this game, so even with triple buffering I wouldn't expect this much input lag. :???:

    As for the game itself, I am enjoying it thus far. The enemies are nowhere near as tough as that guy in the video.
     
  20. Richard

    Richard Mord's imaginary friend
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    How does that saying go? Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice... can't get fooled again? :cool: Arcanum was buggy, ToEE was buggy, Vampire was buggy. Their company logo admited they were focused on the design instead of the code.

    Having to hit a deadline is no different than practically any other developer, except Blizzard, id Software, Valve and a couple of others.

    They worked on Fallout and they had pathing issues. IWD and PS:T had pathing issues. It seems like a disingenuous excuse for them to put forth when pathing is a problem that needs addressing on nearly all games (RPG or no). If they never managed to deal with it before, perhaps they should have hired a programmer that did.
     
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