Epic Sues Apple and Google due to Fortnite getting pulled [2020-08-13]

Discussion in 'Mobile Industry' started by eastmen, Aug 13, 2020.

  1. Ike Turner

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    Apple: "it's a Publicity Stunt"
    gov.uscourts.cand.364265.73.0.pdf (courtlistener.com)
    Epic is full of shit? Who would have thought? Apple confirming what I expected...

     
    #261 Ike Turner, Sep 16, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2020
  2. TheAlSpark

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    Huh, Xbox folks spend a lot on it, eh?
     
  3. zed

    zed
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    well You missing my post here (plus do ppl seriously think that playing these fast action games on a touch screen is 'long lasting' fun )
    https://forum.beyond3d.com/posts/2149990/

    Like I have said IOS is not that important at all to epic for fortnites profits, thus they have the luxury of being able to not have it in the app store without it affecting their finances greatly, thus are able to do the 'morally right' thing (*)and try and reduce the 30% down to something much closer to the actual costs (whilst also earning a nice profit) like um I dont know?

    um perhaps like 12% :lol2:

    (*)after all according to US law, companies are actually people thus should have morals
     
  4. Betanumerical

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    Im surprised people think the 30% isn't reasonable, when its 30% on practically every platform on the planet. Do people think Apple, Google, Sony, Microsoft and Nintendo all colluded to make there cut 30%?, and what is so unreasonable about 30%?.

    Below is a (large) image of the cuts that each retailer takes from IGN.
    [​IMG]
     
  5. zed

    zed
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    Huh mate, just because most companies do it doesnt mean its OK. Strange logic

    What is unreasonable about 30%?
    Im not sure if you are serious with the question, but in case you are

    Its unreasonable because of 2 main points (using the apple app store but applies to others as well)

    1. for most apps/games on the store the amount of time the developer spends on making it vs the amount of time the store spends checking it , costs invloved etc is prolly greater 1000:1 yet they get 30% of the cash. Does that sound fair? No of course not
    2. its profit vs revenue ratio is way out of wack compared to most businesses, even if they only took a 3% cut they would still make a nice profit. They are basically obscenely profiteering ala Shkreli style

    I'm surprised ppl are so willing to bend over and let the companies shaft them like this, true I let them do it also (google and apple) but at least I make noise about it not being right,
     
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  6. Malo

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    30% probably originated from brick n' mortar days where publishers were used to losing 30%+ and lobbyists probably ensured parity with digital stores to prevent publishers from withdrawing from physical sales. Everyone just followed suit as that was the standard.

    Nowadays, 30% is just ridiculous.
     
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  7. Betanumerical

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    Conversely these companies can charge what the want for the platform that they literally curate, maintain and promote. If you dont' like it, don't be on the platform. This lawsuit will have a rippling affect for any walled garden device if it succeeds and im not sure thats a good thing. I want my iPhone to stay a walled garden because it provides many benefits over a free for all.

    The app store is far more then just checking the application, it also involves promoting and marketing the application and provides the distribution as well.
     
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  8. Malo

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    Outside of database entries automatically placing the application in the store and the apple website, how is it promoted and marketed?
     
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  9. pcchen

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    I'm not sure why 30% is ridiculous. It might be, but I don't really see a good argument on how much is not ridiculous.
    For example, Windows is a free for all platform. Anyone can run their own digital store front without restriction. However, even so, most digital store fronts are still going on 25% ~ 30%. Epic Games' own store is the major exception at 12%, but it's not exactly flourishing. Epic Games even paid a lot money for some high profile time limited exclusives, but apparently it's not very helpful.

    Some might say, hey, that's because Steam is a monopoly! But at least for now I'm not aware of anything Valve is doing to unfairly keeping it that way (such as if you want to list on Steam you can't list elsewhere or something like that). Apparently gamers like Steam, and game developers are willing to pay Steam up to 30% for the benefit of being on Steam (IIRC Steam gives a discount for games selling over a certain amount, like US$10 million or something). Also note that there's nothing preventing gamers to install Epic Game Store along with Steam. I believe many do (at least I do). Yet people still prefer to buy games on Steam.

    Furthermore, if you look at what Steam is doing, it's actually not that simple. It takes care of the money, which in the US can be up to 3% ~ 5%, depending on which provider you use. It also hosts your games, which is also a cost if you have to do it by yourself. It also has a forum, a customer relationship management system, cloud saves, multiplayer support system, etc. These all cost money, and if you want it to be reliable, can be a lot money.

    Now, of course on iOS, it's not a free for all system. However, based on the experiment Epic Games did on Android, where they provide their own app distribution system to avoid the Google Play fee, ended up in failure (as they finally decided to list on Google Play), apparently it's not going to work. They are also allowed to run their own store on Android, which they are planning to do, but apparently not very successful (again).

    From all these I think even if Apple allows Epic to run their own store to compete, they are not going to be very successful (as proved by their Android experiment). If Apple allows other companies to set up similar app stores, it's probably going to be all 30%, just like what happens to all these game stores on Windows. So, in the end, I'm not convinced by this "30% is too much" argument, and the strategy Epic Games did is obviously not the best way to present their case.
     
  10. zed

    zed
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    Yes it seems to be the case
    According to the article that Betanumerical got the graphic from (which he didnt link to, prolly cause it doesnt paint a favorable picture of the 30% digital cut :mrgreen:)
    https://www.ign.com/articles/2019/10/07/report-steams-30-cut-is-actually-the-industry-standard
    "Additionally, physical retailers generally stick to a 30% cut too, but keep in mind that publishers often have to invest more themselves to pay for the process of manufacturing the physical media alongside other fees not present in digital distribution."
    So 30% cut which includes the costs of making and shipping the physical media as well as the store costs
    contrast that with digital were its pennies (if that) for making/distribution yet its the same 30%.
    If ppl can not see the ridiculousness of this then I don't know what to say
     
  11. pcchen

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    I think you misunderstand that. Physical retailers take 30% or more but you still have to pay for manufacturing the physical media and probably also shipping. In digital distribution, you don't have to pay for that.
    In general, a game developer (not publisher) gets much less from a physical media sales than from a digital distribution sales.
     
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  12. zed

    zed
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    FWIW the most recent planet money podcast comcerns this topic
    https://www.npr.org/2020/09/18/914563075/apple-v-everybody
    Still dont have an answer why some ppl loath tim sweeny
    The more I look into this guy (Like carmack I've known about him for years but never really paid much attention), but the more it looks like hes a good guy, so I have no idea why inspires this hatred?
     
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  13. xz321zx

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    Maybe him "bucking the trend" was expected in actual game development, instead of monetization, and it's hard to reconcile with him as a "game developer" when steps taken scream ongoing monetization efforts ?
     
  14. milk

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    Yes, digital saves the publisher money, but not just the publisher, but everybody. It's cheaper for the publisher to send a game file through the internet to a digital store vs manufacturing and shipping millions of physical disk boxes.

    But so is hosting said game file in a server and offering the infrastructure for paying custumers to download it from vs having a physicall store, with human sales people, shelves, a parking lot, cleaning staff, toilet, warehouses etc...

    The reality is, the fair thing to do, would be for the PRICE of digital games to be entirely cheaper.

    Now of that cost, how much of a % cut the digital store deserves is much more debatable. There is more to a store than just the infrastructure to enable the sale.

    Arguably, they have created through the years a platform where there are millions of active users with their credit card information filled out a click away from buying stuff they see on the store. What is the value of that? I think in actuality, it varies wildly from product to product.

    For joe-nobody making his dream indie project, Steam or Apple Store for example, give him a lot of value. For the next GTA though, how many customers does steam bring to that product that weren't going to fucking buy it anyway. Sucks that Joe-nobody got the short end yet again, but that is part-and-parcel with being joe-nobody. On the upside, joe will be getting 100% of the devs share on his one-man-project while GTA's profits will be devided by hundreds.

    I think publishers and devs should definetly exercise their willingness to negotiate that more often, just not in a as Media-happy, contract-breaking, drama-creating way as Sweeney chose here.
     
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  15. pcchen

    pcchen Moderator
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    Completely. In a way, Steam and other digital distribution platforms do enable cheaper games through frequent discount programs. Games on physical media are rarely able to discount at something like 10% (90% off) until it's in the discount bin forever.
     
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  16. cheapchips

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    The feel of Unreal weapons was always sloppy compared to the Quake games. This is objective fact. As such, Sweeney can never be forgiven for the part he played in this.
     
  17. tuna

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    Is this sarcasm?
     
  18. cheapchips

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    Sloppy feeling weapons are never a joking matter. ;)
     
  19. zed

    zed
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    :lol: you think unknown person X putting a game on the IOS store has a chance in hell of negotiating a less rate than 30%
    They can negotiate all they want, its not gonna happen, mate

    The only possible way was if they were forced to in court like whats happening now, and there is a possibility that apple is gonna lose, which will cost them a lot.
    And as an apple shareholder that makes me sad
     
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  20. Betanumerical

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    I've found the Hoeg Law series on this case to be very interesting. Be warned some are long (1+ hours) and theres 18 videos.
     
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