Education system should be overhauled

[Sabastian]

Education. I find it interesting that lately boys are failing in their education where they used to excel or at least perform better. I think for the most part it is because of the wishy washy educational values that we have implemented over the past 30 years. Males in the education system really do have a greater capacity but because boys and girls are different we ought to be taking a different approach to education, boys need more discipline and a sense of obligation to do well. They also ought to be kept away from the female gender whilst studying as females are too much of a diversion. I trust that in the proper environmental situations males would do significantly better then under current circumstances and I think that the education system ought to come to this realization before the current educational disparities become too far gone.

I believe that males need a far stricter environment because of their idiosyncratic / rebellious nature. I believe that boys need a sense of apprehension and chain of command similar to the way that John Stewart Mill felt.( OK, maybe not as uncompromising as he was but similar ) Oh I think it is likely that I will have a lot of disagreement on this but I really believe it. While girls, being more compliant in general, are more satisfied with a social environment that current education principles consider. In the ideal world boys and girls wouldn’t need different learning environments but I am becoming more and more convinced that boys in general need a far more martinet setting for their talents to be exposed. Some may not be necessitating of such a strict situation but I believe there are many who do need a more structured setting.

Aside from the improved grades that would be received there would be an overall tendency to not behave poorly simply to be cool in front of the girls. Separate classes may be good enough but I would suggest separate schools would be more appropriate. Single sex education may very well be a drag of sorts for the students but at least they would be more attuned to their studies then if they are concerned with getting into little Suzie’s pants. In fact just separating them may be enough but I would indorse different disciplinary standards for males and females as a supplementary. Additionally, you would more easily be able to hone in on their differing learning models and sharpen their education further.

Also while we are on it the education system ought to go back to a more objective marking scheme instead of this feel good philosophy that a student if they are given poor grades is more damaging then if they are not. Instead of pushing kids through the public education system illiterate they ought to be literate. I believe that the above prescription of single gendered education will facilitate that goal to some degree. Boys and Girls need to understand that their education is likely the single most important objective that they face with regards to becoming an economically successful adult.

Sorry for the rant but it had to be done.

 

[Fred]

Speculative in nature, what evidence is there that women naturally are better adapted to heterogenous schooling. Rather, it seems to be more of a modern trend that women are doing better in school, even though such schools have existed for hundreds of years with the converse being the case. It begs an alternative answer.

IMO if anything, its the fact that schools have begun to place ever greater increases in athletic requirements (starting in the 50s), something that clearly is quite time consuming and typically male oriented. Perhaps also a relative decrease in the importance of science and math.

Besides, part of life is getting in Suzies pants

 

[Sabastian]

Speculative in nature, what evidence is there that women naturally are better adapted to heterogenous schooling. Rather, it seems to be more of a modern trend that women are doing better in school, even though such schools have existed for hundreds of years with the converse being the case. It begs an alternative answer.

IMO if anything, its the fact that schools have begun to place ever greater increases in athletic requirements (starting in the 50s), something that clearly is quite time consuming and typically male oriented. Perhaps also a relative decrease in the importance of science and math.

Besides, part of life is getting in Suzies pants

No denying that, but at 17 or younger? They are not even legal adults at that point, why should we encourage such a mature sexuality when the kids are not mature enough to deal with the consequences of having Suzie put out? It isn't that the classes are heterogeneous it is that they are not as well-ordered as they ought to be for boys. Athletic success is also well associated with "getting the chicks". But there is nothing wrong with Athletic achievement as long as the more academic lines of study are of more importance. Physical fitness in general BTW has gone down the tubes so to speak so to suggest that males’ being athletic is the source of their poor academic achievement is a misleading notion. If anything there should be more attention paid to physical education, obesity is epidemic. I am not talking about higher education or entrance into it but rather public education in general. The problem is that feel good philosophy of marking students grades in a relative manner so that they don't fail despite not having made the effort to actually pass. A good education should be objectively assessed which is something that is obviously not being done.

 

[Fred]

Most teenagers are sexually active around 15-16. The vast majority (including yours truly when I was that age) are mature enough to deal with sex (at least just as much as socalled adults), however its a bit of a problem in the inner cities where safe sex and the like are not routinely practised leading to high numbers of unwanted pregnancies. Thats a different issue though, more a lack of education than anything else.

In America education levels are pretty poor in general in middle school and high school (discounting a few really nice private schools). I don't know if thats a source of the 'male-female' discrepancy, but it certainly is a product of lax and lenient education curriculums.

Still, I don't know that putting teenage boys in a 'military school' type environment is the solution. Its been tried throughout the centuries, and having experienced it for a year personally, I would say I was no more no less effected by it than regular schools. Hell, a lot of the guys I went to school with therein were more out of wack than the normal kids at my regular school.

The cause of the discrepancy probably is largely due to societal values, including bad parenting and the like. Emphasis on athletics to the detriment of schooling is also IMO a problem. I don't think the natural inclination for pursuing women is that much of a hindrance, I mean it applies both ways as well, not to mention a constant throughout history whereas this is more a current problem.

 

[Sabastian]

I have no more time for this tonight. I would like to delve into it a bit more but here is some food for thought:

http://www.singlesexschools.org/evidence.html

EDIT: Have to go to work... :?

 

[Willmeister]

I find that...

... the biggest change needed in the educations system is rather large. The schoolyear itself has to be revamped to reflect our change from an agrarian society to an urbanized one. I think the year should be divided in four, and students are mandatory to attend 3 of 4 with a fourth being optional. It would allow a great deal more diversity in the programs offered. I disagree that math and science have been somewhat deemphasized. Just because our testing scores go down doesn't mean that math and science have been somehow unprioritized. I argue the exact opposite, there is too much emphasis on math and science. That's all we hear about. We're forcing too many square pegs into round holes. Any attempts to force students to do better in something they may not be able to handle is just an inefficient use of resources. There should be a core set of required studies with choices for students as they progress up.

My only problem with seperate schools is that they have this aura or felling of being segragationist.

My ultimate ideal would include having undergraduate studies as part of K-12. Or extend K-12 to K-16 or K-17. It's only logical to do so as the world changes and the body of knowledge increases.

 

[jvd]

man from age 12 - 21 (my current age) schools comes in second place when compared to women. At age 12 i started noticing women growing things that i didn't have and really thats what i'd look at all through class. So seperating men and women would help alot imho.

 

[pax]

Id read that males were doing about same but were being caught up and surpassed by women... Women now are majority of medical school student body. I think biological diffs are overcoming the past cultural probs women had in succeeding in school and which have pretty much gone the way of the dodo. Women are more temperate in nature which makes them better at studying than males with their 10x the amount of testosterone in their system vs the female of the species ...

Its not a whole answer but may go a ways in trying to explain womens' current success vs men in school...

 

[Saem]

Men and women aren't made equal in their ability, even their needs differ -- save the basic ones. Having a one size fits all education system is really retarded.

 

[micron]

Here in California, they're too busy building fucking prisons to revamp the education system. And educating people while their in prison?, it doesnt happen. This is a subject that thouroghly disgust's me.

 

[Himself]

I don't see why strictness should require one gender schools, if you are strict then it shouldn't matter who the students are.

One gender schools are unhealthy. For many it wouldn't matter, they will just interact with the opposite sex outside of school in their neighborhood, for others they will grow up only seeing each other at things like dances. That might make for more antisocial geeks sure, but I don't think that is what you want. Repressed kids are not the answer, at that age kids are going to be distracted by their growing sexual awareness regardless, the sooner they learn how to deal with the opposite sex the better. It's a very valuable part of their education, probably the most important thing they can learn while they attend.

I think the real problem is school systems that are really just daycare for big kids, if you treat them like grown ups they will act like it. If you don't make the grade then you get held back, if you are slow on the uptake, too bad, in the real world you would get fired. There is too much babying and political correctness and pandering to the least capable. The last 3 years of school should be about practical things that will help them get a job, it shouldn't take 12 years to learn the difference between a verb and a noun or how to do algebra. One 3 month university course in chemistry is the equivalent of 2 years of high school chemistry, it's a joke. Kids don't need years to learn stuff, that's just compensating for kids that don't bother studying or taking school seriously. Reward learning how to think and not rote memorization and you'll get more interest in technical subjects.

Note, it's been a while since I was in school, but from all accounts not a lot has changed.

 

[Saem]

I don't see why strictness should require one gender schools, if you are strict then it shouldn't matter who the students are.

Eh? This seems way off, men and women are undeniably different. You can't deal with them in the same way. So yes, it does matter.

This isn't something like, blacks and whites are different...

As for learning to deal with the opposite sex, well that comes from parents teaching their kids some values. That they should respect people, and the other sex is people.

I didn't learn to get along with the opposite sex by hanging around them in the schoolyard. My mom raised me to respect others and do your best not to cause others harm. All this school yard/thrown into the deep end of the pool parenting raises date rapists. Then some putz comes along and says where did we go wrong? Where did the education system go wrong? Where did TV go wrong? Where did video games go wrong? Where did the parents and teachers go wrong? They went wrong by going hands off and letting life in the schoolyard teach them.

 

[Willmeister]

asdf

And educating people while their in prison?, it doesnt happen. This is a subject that thouroghly disgust's me.

Honestly, I don't think prisons should be about education, nor about revenge, nor about rehabilitation. Prisons should only exists to remove people who have shown themselves to be dangers to others. That said, we have way too many of the wrong people in prison, especially looking at the USA and it's absurd War on Drugs.

However, people should be educated before they get to prison, and if the system was overhauled in a manner like I've said above, maybe we can reduce the prison population significantly.[/quote]

 

[MfA]

The difference in learning ability between sexes is a stupid reason for seperate sex education ... the intra-sex variance is far greater than than the inter-sex variance. This arguement cannot be used for seperate sex education, learning ability is only correlated with sex but it is quite obviously not a 1:1 relation. If you want to have seperate education for seperate levels of learning ability fine, but dont choose some poorly correlated black/white seperation to test that learning ability.

Sexuality, integration, ability to concentrate in mixed sex environment etc. are seperate issues altogether.

 

[Willmeister]

asdf

And educating people while their in prison?, it doesnt happen. This is a subject that thouroghly disgust's me.

Honestly, I don't think prisons should be about education, nor about revenge, nor about rehabilitation. Prisons should only exists to remove people who have shown themselves to be dangers to others. That said, we have way too many of the wrong people in prison, especially looking at the USA and it's absurd War on Drugs. There are hardcore criminals who have lesser sentences than some first-time drug offenders and to me that is just wrong.

However, people should be educated before they get to prison, and if the system was overhauled in a manner like I've said above, maybe we can reduce the prison population significantly.

 

[DemoCoder]

I think the only reason there is a difference of "outcome" in male ability at the edges of the bell curve is because while males are more "hyper" and less able to general purpose study (e.g. paperwork), males are much more inclined to be passionately and obsessively focused on something to the exclusion of everything else, including social committments, something most women (and people in general) are willing forgo.

Where it's in business, education, or science, you'll just find more males willing to get totally fixated on something, ignore rational wisdom saying it ain't possible, go against friends and enemies, ignore personal hygiene for days, etc.

I've met alot of women geeks, but I haven't met any that would hold up in a log cabin for months with no human contact or bathing working on fermat's last theorem, eating, sleeping, and breathing one particular fixation for most of their waking hours.

And if you look at the edge of the bell curve, where the geniuses who stand out exist, you will see quite a lot of this eccentric behavior, because, surprise surprise, genius is 98% perspiration, and you're not going to get a field's medal by age fourty if you spend 70% of your time partying with friends (or posting on B3D everyday)

But for everyday activity, the backbone of our economy, women are the better choice, because they have superior communication skills and temperment, perfect for management, sales, PR, lab work, etc.

 

[Neeyik]

Having worked in both single sex and co-educational schools, I can say that there is a definite advantage to having single sex education. Both boys and girls work and perform better without the distractions of the opposite gender. However, it is by no means an open-and-shut case; my current workplace has gone from being an all-girls school to being mixed (although the pupil count is still heavily in favour of girls).

Although the overall results of the school has steadily gone down since the introduction of boys 5 years ago, the girls themselves aren't working any worse in general. There are a few exceptions to this but on the whole, they're fine - it's the lads that are a concern. There is just no atmosphere of achievement in them; they don't care if they do badly nor are they willing to try and get themselves out of such problems. Again, this is not to say that all boys are like this, but on the whole, boys in mixed gender schools underachieve.

When I worked in an all-boys school though, there was still an element of "can't be bothered" but they would take a lot more pride about their work and final results. Rather than gaining achievements through consistent application, they would prefer to leave everything down to the final exams and blitz them in style. I have to confess and say that I was no different when I was at school - I did naff all work for my S-level physics and O-level astronomy ! I know of several schools where it is co-educational overall but individual lessons, mostly the core subjects, are taught as single sex. That's fine for those places that can afford it but many small schools in rural areas simply cannot do this.

The problem is not one of what the current education system is like, in my opinion. It's about "image" - for the past 20 years, the "image" of women has moved forwards (finally); positively demonstrating that any woman or man can do XXX job if they work hard for it. The "image" of men has not had this same push - it's been left alone for years; partly out of fear as being labelled sexist/oppressive and partly out of the fact that many grown men today only view success in terms of material wealth and earnings. Cue footballers, rock stars and movie stars. When I was a kid my hero was Joe Kittinger; it was his exploits that got me into astronomy and physics. I didn't want (and still don't) fame and fortune; I am obsessed with knowledge, not image.

Simply changing the education system is not going to work; our entire culture and sense of worth/ethics is the root cause - going single sex in all lessons is just slapping a sticky plaster over the cut. The cause is left ignored but at least the blood and mess is out of sight.

 

[Sabastian]

Having worked in both single sex and co-educational schools, I can say that there is a definite advantage to having single sex education. Both boys and girls work and perform better without the distractions of the opposite gender. However, it is by no means an open-and-shut case; my current workplace has gone from being an all-girls school to being mixed (although the pupil count is still heavily in favour of girls).

Although the overall results of the school has steadily gone down since the introduction of boys 5 years ago, the girls themselves aren't working any worse in general. There are a few exceptions to this but on the whole, they're fine - it's the lads that are a concern. There is just no atmosphere of achievement in them; they don't care if they do badly nor are they willing to try and get themselves out of such problems. Again, this is not to say that all boys are like this, but on the whole, boys in mixed gender schools underachieve.

When I worked in an all-boys school though, there was still an element of "can't be bothered" but they would take a lot more pride about their work and final results. Rather than gaining achievements through consistent application, they would prefer to leave everything down to the final exams and blitz them in style. I have to confess and say that I was no different when I was at school - I did naff all work for my S-level physics and O-level astronomy ! I know of several schools where it is co-educational overall but individual lessons, mostly the core subjects, are taught as single sex. That's fine for those places that can afford it but many small schools in rural areas simply cannot do this.

The problem is not one of what the current education system is like, in my opinion. It's about "image" - for the past 20 years, the "image" of women has moved forwards (finally); positively demonstrating that any woman or man can do XXX job if they work hard for it. The "image" of men has not had this same push - it's been left alone for years; partly out of fear as being labelled sexist/oppressive and partly out of the fact that many grown men today only view success in terms of material wealth and earnings. Cue footballers, rock stars and movie stars. When I was a kid my hero was Joe Kittinger; it was his exploits that got me into astronomy and physics. I didn't want (and still don't) fame and fortune; I am obsessed with knowledge, not image.

Thanks for your input. I couldn't ask for a better person to post their opinion.

Simply changing the education system is not going to work; our entire culture and sense of worth/ethics is the root cause - going single sex in all lessons is just slapping a sticky plaster over the cut. The cause is left ignored but at least the blood and mess is out of sight.

Oh, I couldn't agree more. I would say that indeed it is a good place to start though. People I believe particularly in NA would come to be more keen on matters that involve their children individually. I really do think that it is a better schooling model then the current mixed variety. I would like to suggest an extension of your analogy. A cut heals faster if it is tended too.

 

[Vince]

One gender schools are unhealthy. For many it wouldn't matter, they will just interact with the opposite sex outside of school in their neighborhood, for others they will grow up only seeing each other at things like dances.

Exactly; there should be a not so subtle difference between what goes on in the classroom and what does on after school.

Unhealthy my ass. I was blessed and attended a more prestigious private highschool that went co-ed in the early '90s having been a male only school since it's inception in the early 1900's. Looking back, I wish the school was still only guys. Athough the females bring a wealth of knowledge, intelligence and differing views into the classroom discussions - they bring an aspect that is non-tangible and can easly be seen looking at the school before and after the swap. Guys start caring more about how they look, many such as myself were afraid to speak-up in discussions for fear of how you'd be percieved because no matter the school your at there will allways be stigmas attached. Not to mention the constant note passing, showing off, blatant hittin-on that we did, et al.

And that's in a school that had and still has a stict and conservative dress code. Going by my friends whose children attend public schools and seeing the things kids wear to school (lets not forget, this is school) is just unbelievable. Especially the girls of today, I'm sometimes amazed that the girls are going to school and not a strip-club. But, that's another story.

Last time I checked, you attended to school to gain knowledge and refinement - not get a lesson in social aspect with the opposite sex that shouldn't even be entered into the classroom... stupid liberals.

 

[DemoCoder]

Vince, that sounds like my highschool, Baltimore Polytech, an engineering/science "magnet" school.

It had uniforms and was boys only until the YEAR BEFORE I joined. Thus, when I was in high school, there were about 2 girls per class, and no real dress code. Over the 4 years I was there, professionalism decreased rapidly. (next that school on the same land was an all-girls magnet school. It's still an all girls magnet school. Hmm, wonder why men can't have their own private clubs?)

When I first got there, everyone was told to treat school as if you were coming to work. It was business casual, and people were courteous and well mannered. By senior year, people were wearing nike warmup outfits, and forming typical HS cliques.

My wife and indeed many of my friends went to school in asia, where uniforms are prevalent, and even with co-ed education, there is far less bullying and "popularity contest" crap. She thinks it's impossible to get an education in American schools, because students spend more time on their looks and on their social standing than on their study.

I think one of the positive aspects of school uniforms is that it disguises social class and takes the burden of being fashionable out of the student's mind. Women get into a kind of "arms race" against other women when it comes to clothes.

I don't even believe HS approximates the real world. No workplace I have been in has had the sort of vicious politics and outright brutality you see in high school. If your workplace was like your school, you couldn't get anything done. HS should be a safe place for students to learn. The idea that it's a crucible to forge people who can survive in the real world I think is a fallacy. If anything, it's like what prison does to prisoners: makes them more violent. HS seems to turn most people into superficial group thinkers who worry more about popularity, showing off, and consumer items, not to mention abusers who haze the next generation, rather than free thinking individuals and leaders.