Editorial On "Is Wii Next-Gen?" (answer: no)

fearsomepirate

Dinosaur Hunter
Veteran
I think this editorial summarizes how a lot of us feel about the Wii. I honestly have not been that excited about the machine since E3 demos made it pretty clear that we most certainly are not dealing with an up-to-date GPU here. I'm a bit comforted that Red Steel has made marked improvements (much improved since they were working on overclocked Gamecubes), but I still think Nintendo totally dropped the ball on the processors.

I'm not quite as rabid about graphics as some of y'all. I didn't get upset when the DS was substantially less powerful than PSP (the price made sense enough after the first drop, didn't need a Memory Stick, no load times, 10-hour battery life, touchscreen, still a big leap over GBA), and I'm certainly not of the same mind as folks who will seriously rethink a console purchase when they discover that the FSB on the CPU is 15% slower than they expected.

But here Nintendo's offering us a machine that's designed around two features that I don't think matter in the slightest: Gamecube backward compatibility and being able to be connected to the Internet 24/7. The first doesn't matter because everyone who cared about Gamecube games has a Gamecube already. I'm going to guess that the real reason was to speed up the porting of Gamecube projects to Wii...which only matters for launch window. So in other words, we're putting up with vastly inferior hardware for 4-5 years for the sake of a few launch titles. The second doesn't matter because there's not much of a difference between downloading game updates automatically at night and just downloading them when you turn the machine on. Is that going to be a console-seller to anyone? I don't think so.

No, I'm not as upset about the pricetag as some folks. I think it's a bit much, but it's so not much over my $200-$230 expected price tag that it won't be down in my price range within a year. I wasn't expecting 64-player online matches. I don't really even care all that much about "true" HDR, HD resolutions, or parallax mapping. But I think that for the price Nintendo is asking, the profit they want to make, and the hardware profile/heat signature/power consumption they're going for, they could have made the machine substantially more powerful, and that bothers me. They could have solved the generational pet peeves everyone had with just a few transistors, but judging by the games, they didn't, and that bothers me, too. Because that's just not good engineering, if you ask me. And I just don't like buying products that I feel are poorly designed.
 
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I think you're confused. Nintendo meet all of their goals with the Wii:

They will be making profit from day one.

It consumes next to no power.

It is backwards compatible with the Gamecube.

Its super tiny.

Its stylish.

Its the exact opposite of everything Microsoft and Sony have worked to achieve.

Great engineering if you ask me.
 
I think you're confused. Nintendo meet all of their goals with the Wii:

They will be making profit from day one.

It consumes next to no power.

It is backwards compatible with the Gamecube.

Its super tiny.

Its stylish.

Its the exact opposite of everything Microsoft and Sony have worked to achieve.

Great engineering if you ask me.


Well the PS3 and 360 can't be BC with the GC by nature right? :p
But I think both of those machines are stylish and a great piece of engineering too, but I'm more than sure you agree with my points too. ;)
 
It's not next-gen but nobody would buy a console for having the title "next-gen". If it has the games people want it'll sell. People don't buy new systems to have the versions of sports games with better nose polys.

It's missing third-party AAA games though.
 
Well the PS3 and 360 can't be BC with the GC by nature right? :p
But I think both of those machines are stylish and a great piece of engineering too, but I'm more than sure you agree with my points too. ;)

Not sure what you mean. Yes, the PS3 and 360 can emulate and therefore be backwards compatible with the GC. But of course besides the legal issues, the PS3 and 360 cost most, and cost the company more.

If you reach your goals then its good engineering and I believe almost anyone would agree with that. If the PS3 is what Sony set out to make and if the 360 is what MS set out to make and they achieved it then yes, it was good engineering.

The idea that Nintendo could have added tons more power to the Wii and still made a profit is pretty insane to me. Especially when we have no 100% facts on what's completely inside yet.
 
They could have solved the generational pet peeves everyone had with just a few transistors, but judging by the games, they didn't, and that bothers me, too. Because that's just not good engineering, if you ask me. And I just don't like buying products that I feel are poorly designed.

/Begin "not enough sleep rant"...

I agree. Backwards compatiblity with the GCN -- the console with arguably the worse library of the current gen systems -- is a no-winner. I own a GCN... and it collects dust outside of a couple games. The GCN is small, I can hook it up whenever I want to play the killer Mario game on the platform... errr, wait, there wasn't one. Now that explains a lot :LOL:

For what they are offering I think they are asking too much. I think they could have reached all their objectives, including fiscal ones, with the exception of backwards compatibility, and ended up with a far better product at $250. e.g. R300 class GPU. You mention easy porting, but as true as that may be, R300 class hardware supports a wide class of software and engines, and runs them very well, so I think even that would have been a moot point.

I love Nintendo's first party offerings, and I think the Wii-mote is a great idea and hope the execution is great. But as a GCN owner I feel burned. Nintendo did little to rectify the situation with 3rd parties, got rid of Rare, and was unable to deliver a steady stream of quality software. For every "new" star (Metroid, Pikmin) it seemed Nintendo lost serious ground with their bigger franchises--first by neglecting Mario, second by not listening to the fans on Zelda, inability to followup on SSBM and MK:DD (the later needing to re-mature with some more speed and emphasis on skill), totally blowing up the SF franchise, etc.

Think I am being harsh?

Try getting a consistant stream of racing games. In the racing genre there is offroad, F1, Nascar, Sims, Sim-Arcade, Battle, Kart, Arcade/Action, etc. NFS:U2 was released on November 12th, 2004. The next racing game to appear on the GCN was shipped 12 months later (NFS:MW on November 10th, 2005). Nintendo has shown themselves incapable of soliciting a strong presence of 3rd party support and is obviously incapable of fulfilling a wide gamut of software with variety and quality.

Hardware could have been an avenue to rectify this. Check--hardware should have been an avenue to rectify this as much as possible. Taking a more standardized approach to tap the wealth of developers already leveraging the PC would have been a good move IMO. As developers transition to D3D10 and high end DX9, there remains a lot of proven middleware tools that can be obtained cheaply. Which of course is Nintendo's goal: reduce development costs.

Instead they go the more "closed" approach (typical Nintendo, which is why they are partly in the mess they are), and because of such they appear to be sacrificing performance to maintain their GCN investment (both hardware IPs and game development tools).

When I originally heard they were looking at DX9 class hardware I was excited. Wii doesn't need to be a 360 or PS3, nor should they try IMO. But that doesn't mean they should abandon persueing a high degree of performance bang for the buck.

If it were not for the consumer excitement over the controller Nintendo would be dead in the water. And while their processing power is less than I wanted, it is the net result of their decisions that worries me the most: They have abandoned industry trends in technology, i.e. are not a next gen console. By not even maintaining basic low level parity in features/performance, there will be a large loss in software.

Wii could have been the console that got the multiplatform stuff + a ton of exclusives built around the Wiimote. Instead it looks like just the later. While I don't mind trying these, I don't have any desire to abandon traditional games that have proven their worth, nor do I feel like taking a gamble on yet another Nintendo console when they are following the basic trend of the last 2, which has significantly harmed 3rd party support.

I want to try the Wii, but I think I will be happy waiting to get one at $99. By then the Wiimote should be perfected and a lot of AAA games should be affordable. I will also have a better idea of what I am getting long term, and at $99 I don't expect much. At $250 -- $50+ more than I payed for my GCN, N64, SNES, and NES -- I don't believe I am getting more, comparatively to the market, that I did in the past.

Which is sad, because I still love their software, but only being able to afford 1 primary platform means software will be the deciding factor. At 480p, I believe they could have easily created an affordable machine that is ~ 1/3rd the performance of the 360/PS3 and maybe requiring a few check boxes disabled, but still very nice in that it could run fairly modern game engines at 480p with full features.

Of course I will leave room for Nintendo to suck me in with a killer Mario Kart game with oneline support. Until then, well, I am looking forward to trying the Wii wand at a Kiosk, but it isn't on my "must buy" list like their past consoles were -- I am not convinced with their strategy in the market and don't think Nintendo has learned from their mistakes, which ultimately has ment less quality software on a regular basis on their platform.

/End "not enough sleep rant"...
 
hmm.. well, here're my two cents on that.

being of hardcore desktop background (got into consoles much later), i never understood the next-gen console frenzy. being the technology leader for some ~6 months until the new desktops catch up in price-performance, and not reaching even that stature if we disregard the price-performance and the creative game-design aspect - why? it's not like the first gen of titles hitting that 'tech superiority' window in the lifespan of a console is that great either. so what's all the fuss about? for all i know, none of the system sellers (for me) for any of the conosles i own was released at the respective machine's 'superiority window' (or those that were i got only much later anyway). system sellers (again, for me) start to appear only once people start to be on a first-name basis with the hw and care to get creative. well, guess what, here nintendo are trying to do something unheard of - allow devs be on-a-first-name basis with the console and, erm, shall i put it 'require' creativity right of the bat. so what's wrong with that? i know i won't be getting a 360 soon (nothing interesting on the horizin until mid 2007) and i also know i won't be getting a ps3 by 2008 (cannot justify to myself spending that much on yet another sony toy). what i know, though, is that i'll be having lots of fun by this new year with one little box bearing a funny name. do i care how it will mature in, say, 4 years - nope. why? - because it will deliver great fun for me right in its first year. i don't have to wait for years till the platform gets worthwhile - i don't have that patientce anymore, not at my age.
 
I think you're confused. Nintendo meet all of their goals with the Wii:

They will be making profit from day one.

It consumes next to no power.

It is backwards compatible with the Gamecube.

Its super tiny.

Its stylish.

Its the exact opposite of everything Microsoft and Sony have worked to achieve.

Great engineering if you ask me.

• As a consumer, I don't care if Nintendo makes a profit
• I'll pay two or three bucks more a year for power consumption
• This is a bonus
• More self space is always good
• Looks rather plain to me
• Who cares?

I like Nintendo, but they could have done so much more. I'm not a fan of the 360 game library, but at least they got the hardware right. I'll stick with my DC, Cube, and PS2 until the PS3 price cuts in half. By that time I expect to see Wii dead in the water or the next videogame crash.
 
hmm.. well, here're my two cents on that.

being of hardcore desktop background (got into consoles much later), i never understood the next-gen console frenzy. being the technology leader for some ~6 months until the new desktops catch up in price-performance.


Hmm that doesn't sound very right to me. Desktops definately catch up in performance rather quickly, but I don't see how you can put the word price in there? X360 has been out for almost a year now, tell me what kind of PC can you buy with 299-399$?
I also think that due to the closed box, consoles hold their own for longer than 6 months, as in the end it doesn't matter what's in the box, but what you squeeze out of it.
 
Well, I think "next-gen" is a meaningless marketing point. What is the threshold for being considered "next-gen" ? How do we measure it ? FLOPS ? Supported color depth ? Number of sprites/polygons ? Inclusion of a new media type ? Bandwidth ? CPU speed/number of cores ?

The Ars editorial is a slightly more articulated version of the false Nintendo fan concern troll schtick that can be seen on every gaming forum. In other words, *yawn*.

Let's be clear here : Nintendo is pricing the Wii at $249 for its launch season because it can. A combination of hype, early adopters (Nintendo fans mostly), Zelda at launch (even if it's basically a GC game), and high pricing of the competition (not to mention PS3 being in short supply) all but guarantees they will sell out. I'm pretty sure Nintendo will be the first to reach all more market-friendly prices this generation. I suspect that in a couple of months they will remove Wii Sports and the Opera offer from the bundle, and drop to $199.

The low tech in the Wii has a couple of advantages :
- price drops will be easy to do once the launch hype is gone
- dev kits are an evolution from NGC, meaning less learning curve for developers (and yes, this is important to attract 3rd parties with lower development costs)
- form factor seems to be very important with Japanese people (casuals especially)
- large amount of units available at launch (we all remember the fiasco of the 360 launch, and the PS3 is shaping to be even worse)
- Backward compatibility with NGC

Those tradeoffs are part of their strategy. As I said in another thread, my theory is that they initially started with something more ambitious in mind, but changed course and made a bet on the Wiimote coupled with an "underpowered" (compared to the competition) design and friendly form-factor, at a low price. That may or may not work in the end. I can see the Wii making better results than the NGC without problem.
 
But what constitute or criteria should be completed/fulfilled in order for a system to be called next-gen?
Is it just graphics?
 
darkblu said:
being of hardcore desktop background (got into consoles much later), i never understood the next-gen console frenzy. being the technology leader for some ~6 months until the new desktops catch up in price-performance.

Actually x360 is the games technology leader for one year allready and based to everything we know it will be the same for one more year (this second year in par with ps3).
So , what Ms has achieved with this console is incredible IMO , they delivered a console with hardware capable to remain the "games technology leader" for 2 years. Ofcousrse i believe that by the end of 2007 the vast majority of developers will focus again to PCs as their main platform on account of new and better technology.
 
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I think it summurizes it good- My thing is they shouldnt have let Zelda be on the GC- cuz that made me not buy a Wii and just keep my GC just for zelda- and more over-
to me Wii is an innovation that is fun quirky and will get boring fast-- Itll be great for kids but playing games that is comprimised on the movement of the hand only isnt that great. And just like the DS to me itll get boring fast- Tho the PS3 is the same way but for every game i have seen you can turn off sixaxis controls which makes me happy-
 
But what constitute or criteria should be completed/fulfilled in order for a system to be called next-gen?
Is it just graphics?
I'd say using the next generation of processor and system technologies - technology more contemporary with the console rather than it's predecessor. XB360 is next-gen because it's using CPU and GPU architectures that are current technology and weren't possible last-gen. PS3 likewise. Wii appears to be using old technology, thus from a technological POV, shouldn't be considered next-gen. It could be classified next-gen from other criteria I'm sure, but in terms of what's under the hood...I think not.
 
I'd say using the next generation of processor and system technologies - technology more contemporary with the console rather than it's predecessor. XB360 is next-gen because it's using CPU and GPU architectures that are current technology and weren't possible last-gen. PS3 likewise. Wii appears to be using old technology, thus from a technological POV, shouldn't be considered next-gen. It could be classified next-gen from other criteria I'm sure, but in terms of what's under the hood...I think not.

Playing a bit of a devil's advocate here, but a console with the power, the form factor, and the consumption of the Wii with last gen's technology (circa 2001) was certainly impossible... I agree that for many people in the hardcore gamer category form factor and consumption are not relevant factors, but it seems Nintendo intends to push this angle with the larger public.
 
I think you're confused. Nintendo meet all of their goals with the Wii:

When your goals are poorly-thought, it doesn't matter if you reach them. And whether or not a product satisfies the consumer (in this case, me) has little to do with whether the corporation meets its own internal goals.

Acert, I'm not entirely with you. Nintendo's never released a sequel to Smash Bros on the N64 or multiple Mario Karts on SNES or N64. Those are the kinds of games that don't need lots of sequels. I'm not the sort to buy 7 of nearly the same game with slight variations (2004 is the only Madden I own). Wind Waker's also my favorite game on Cube; again, I have little sympathy for the vast amount of whining over the cel-shaded style, as it's easily one of the most beautiful games on the system. And Nintendo's problems last gen were completely unrelated to hardware power. The Gamecube was plenty powerful, but it didn't differentiate itself, it was marketed as a toy, and it didn't have a certain checklist feature that everyone went ga-ga over but hardly anyone ever used.

That trend is not kept up in the slightest with Wii. It's clearly a different product, and it's not being marketed as a toy.

As for "what is next-gen?" that gets defined every generation. Last gen, it was all about having polygon counts in the millions per second, enough particles to light up the screen, and some new special effects like motion blur, bloom lighting, weather, and finally being able to have some decent animation, more than 3 characters on screen without killing the framerate, etc. This gen, it's about heavy use of pixel and vertex shaders advanced physics, and a huge leap in the number of actors we can see on screen. And that's just not something you'll see on Wii.
 
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Playing a bit of a devil's advocate here, but a console with the power, the form factor, and the consumption of the Wii with last gen's technology (circa 2001) was certainly impossible... I agree that for many people in the hardcore gamer category form factor and consumption are not relevant factors, but it seems Nintendo intends to push this angle with the larger public.
But they could certainly get more powerful and updated hardware into that small form factor than they've actually got. PS2 achieved that form factor about 3 years after release. Thus Wii should manage now the better tech from 3 years earlier to now.

With my (made up) definition, for Wii to be next-gen, it ought to have the current technology that would fit into that form factor. If an ATi 9800 class GPU could fit, that's the sort of GPU level tech they should be using to class as next-gen. A basic shrinking of a system can't really class as next-gen, otherwise next-gen began with PSTwo!
 
I think it should be noted (as it's an angle missed in this thread) that the Wii's hardware, while quite inferior to the X360/PS3, is still capable of providing modern gaming experiences.

Launch games such as Red Steel already show off a fair level of detail. Nothing close to Gears of War, but still easy to stomach. Previews of COD3 [Wii] have said that while the game looks worse than the X360 version, it maintains the same level of action on-screen.

We all remember RE4. Yes, I'm making that comparison again. :)

RE4 looked exceptional (enough for IGN to put it near the top of the overall graphics heap, pre-360) and ran at a near-constant 30fps. It took a while to come out, though; almost 4 years after launch. Also, it's not like the GCN had bad looking titles at launch. Luigi's Mansion pushed the system fairly hard.

RE4 stands in its own class on the system, though. I expect the same improvements from Wii, in time. It's going to have the DS appeal: weaker, but bringin' the games we want to the table.

That said, I already bought the X360 because I couldn't do without the games that Wii isn't getting. :)
 
:LOL:

It doesn't matter whether the Wii's "next-gen" or not. Power was always irrelevant and it will continue to be irrelevant.

In terms of power:

N64 > PSone... PSone sold better
Gamegear > Gameboy... Gameboy sold better
Xbox > PS2... PS2 sold better
Xbox 360 >>> PS2... PS2 is still selling better
PSP > DS... DS is selling much better

Notice a pattern. ;)
 
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