DRAM Price-Fix Uncovered in China, 'Massive Evidence' Against Samsung, SK Hynix and Micron

Discussion in 'PC Industry' started by Megadrive1988, Nov 20, 2018.

  1. Megadrive1988

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    https://www.techpowerup.com/249797/...-evidence-against-samsung-sk-hynix-and-micron

     
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  2. BRiT

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    Shocked. Shocked, I say! :shock:

    Have they ever gone more than a year without fixing prices?
     
  3. nutball

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    Is this a necro thread from the 2010s? or 2000s? or 1990s? or all and every fifteen minute intervals in between?

    Coming next on Bloody Obvious News at Eleven: Monopolists Monopolize, and Bear Shits In The Woods With The Pope (Live Footage).
     
  4. Esrever

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    So far, 0 evidence. Just lawsuits using other lawsuits as justification. As if any of those lawyers care if there are any evidence if they could milk a case like this and get a settlement.

    I mean, if they were price fixing they are doing a pretty shit job at it when the prices are falling after supply that they been ramping has been added. They must be doing a pretty shit job at artificially lowering supply by building factories and increasing production more than 20% this year alone while projecting even more production next year with the industry expecting DRAM prices to drop off a cliff and for all their profits margins to hit near 0.

    Blaming companies that profit when a commodity like ram is in low supply because the demand has been through the roof is just stupid. Production has only gone up and the prices have gone up only because demand has gone up even fast. It's like blaming AMD and Nvidia for price fixing GPUs when the miners where buying all the cards.

    The only thing China is after here is trying to steal IP to make their own RAM and putting pressure on RAM makers to play by their rules while using this as a guise to make it happen. "Our totally not rigged justice system has deemed you unlawful, please cooperate and give us what we want or we are going to use our state powers to fuck over your companies" -China probably.

    Chinese companies literally stole micron tech and then sued Micron in China to and to no one's surprise, China ruled in favor of the Chinese.
     
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  5. BRiT

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    Maybe the recent price drop is only an attempt to make it seem like it hasn't been price-fixed for the last 24+ months?
     
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  6. orangpelupa

    orangpelupa Elite Bug Hunter
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    wait. the raim price has dropped? hmm i wonder when it will happen in my country too
     
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  7. AlphaWolf

    AlphaWolf Specious Misanthrope
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    I look forward to my next settlement cheque.
     
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  8. BRiT

    BRiT (╯°□°)╯
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    I hope there's a settlement option to receive it as Reese Peanut Butter Cups, as it certainly won't even amount to a coffee.
     
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  9. AlphaWolf

    AlphaWolf Specious Misanthrope
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    I got $20 from my last one.

    Keep in mind almost every piece of electronics is using some, it is not just pc parts.
     
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  10. ToTTenTranz

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    That's not what the chinese oficial said. You can argue he's lying though.

    So you just decided to believe the accused and not the accuser.

    And during 2017 the RAM prices skyrocketed while RAM makers claimed it was because of much larger demand for RAM in smartphones... and then in 2018 we learned that less smartphones were sold during 2017.


    And how does the class-action suit in California (filed by the very same people/firm who won the previous class action suit) fit into your "this is just China trying to steal RAM" theory?
    Do you also think the 2000's class action suits were fabricated against the poor RAM makers, or is there something that sets both cases apart?



    Or a late attempt at gaining some favorable public opinion.
     
  11. Esrever

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    What evidence did they give again? Please quote it. He could say anything he wants but until there is proof, you are just believing what based on "feelings".


    Guilty until proven innocent is a great idea!!!

    Phones were not blamed for using the ram( even though they used their fair share because each phone came with more ram, especially on the low end where 1GB models became 2GB and such) so you basically have a false premises. The servers space was where the most growth was happening. Also not generally reported as much is how crypto would have demanded a lot of ram for each of those GPUs that were sold. The new AI based requirements make uses of extremely large data sets and it has huge implications on how much ram is being used in the server space.

    Note how in 2016, servers used 9% of world wide dram+nand by revenue but in 2017, that has jumped to 20%:
    upload_2018-11-21_10-29-57.png

    And switching to total Gb based data. Note the explosive growth in servers and the slower but consistent growth in mobiles:
    upload_2018-11-21_10-28-33.png
    source

    Refer to the point where there is 0 evidence and "Just lawsuits using other lawsuits as justification" point which was the first point I made. Also china is accused already of stealing, it is not a theory. I think the DOJ has more weight behind their lawsuit than some random lawyers in California, no?
     
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  12. BRiT

    BRiT (╯°□°)╯
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    Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it. How many times now has that entire industry acted in bad faith and had past legal settlements and fines?
     
  13. Esrever

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    Like 1? As far as I know, the only lawsuit was in 2006.
     
  14. BRiT

    BRiT (╯°□°)╯
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    I can't tell if all these were from the same actions or not, since so many were involved and justice moves slowly. Obviously the suit filed in April 2018 is new.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DRAM_price_fixing

    In 2002, the United States Department of Justice, under the Sherman Antitrust Act, began a probe into the activities of dynamic random access memory (DRAM) manufacturers.[citation needed] US computer makers, including Dell and Gateway, claimed that inflated DRAM pricing was causing lost profits and hindering their effectiveness in the marketplace.[citation needed]

    To date, five manufacturers have pleaded guilty to their involvement in an international price-fixing conspiracy including Hynix, Infineon, Micron Technology, Samsung, and Elpida.[1]

    "In December 2003, the Department charged Alfred P. Censullo, a Regional Sales Manager for Micron Technology Inc., with obstruction of justice in violation of 18 U.S.C. § 1503. Censullo pleaded guilty to the charge and admitted to having withheld and altered documents responsive to a grand jury subpoena served on Micron in June 2002."[1]

    On 20 October 2004, Infineon also pleaded guilty. The company was fined US$160M for its involvement, then the third largest antitrust fine in US history. In April 2005, Hynix Semiconductor was fined US$185M after they also admitted guilt. In October 2005, Samsung entered a guilty plea in connection with the cartel.[2]

    On 5 April 2006, Sun Woo 'Sunny' Lee, Senior Manager of DRAM at Samsung Electronics, entered into a plea bargain with the US Government for his involvement in the price fixing conspiracy UNITED STATES OF AMERICA v. SUN WOO LEE (D.C. Cir. 2006). Text. Following the plea agreement he was sentenced to 8 months in prison and fined US$250,000.[3]

    On 27 April 2018 Hagens Berman filed a class-action lawsuit against Samsung, Hynix, and Micron in U.S. District Court alleging the trio engaged in DRAM price fixing causing prices to skyrocket through 2016 and 2017.[4] Between June 2016 and January 2018 the price of DRAM nearly tripled. [5]
     
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  15. ToTTenTranz

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    You think the investigators would be showing all evidence as they come up, instead of fully mounting the case before presenting it in full?
    Do you have any idea how this works, and how immensely stupid it would be for them to make the evidence public like that?


    I'm believing based on History and empiric evidence: price-per-GB skyrocketing despite stale or lower demand across several markets.



    Did you read the legend on that graph? It's a forecast, probably made somewhere in 2016.
    It's also demand per 1Gb, meaning it doesn't take into account the inevitable higher density of memory as DRAM makers adopt newer fabrication nodes for newer chips.
    So of course all those numbers will keep rising. Memory makers weren't going to make 256Mb chips forever, were they?



    And you think the US government has zero motives to try to keep China from exporting their own DRAM?
    I guess that "innocent until proven guilty" motto only works one way.


    lol
     
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