Digital Foundry Article Technical Discussion [2022]

mr magoo

Regular
Scroll Back in time and you will hear me saying similar commentary about GT7 only having RT reflections in their replays. I find it detewtable that tracing Games are the only Genre to do this - it makes no sense to have better graphics full Stop in a non gameplay Mode.
Not really, other game genres are using better graphics settings during cut scenes. Going back to racing games it makes perfect sense to use better graphics settings during replay when you have time to focus on visuals and enjoy replay.
 

Remij

Regular
Scroll Back in time and you will hear me saying similar commentary about GT7 only having RT reflections in their replays. I find it detewtable that tracing Games are the only Genre to do this - it makes no sense to have better graphics full Stop in a non gameplay Mode.
Really? I must have missed that and apologize if so. However, I really don't see the problem with replays being at a higher fidelity than the gameplay visuals. Essentially you're showing off the vehicles and environments in angles which come with greater scrutiny. Replay camera angles are meant to make races more cinematic and interesting for the observer... as long as what they're showing is running in real-time and what people can expect to see, it's fine IMO. We know every racing game, and not only that, but almost every game these days show off cinematics in their trailers which are higher fidelity than the gameplay aspects of the game. I just don't see why this is any different. We got both a cinematic replay trailer sizzle, and a 5 min gameplay trailer. I don't believe the intention is to mislead.
 

Remij

Regular
It just seems odd that DF is focusing on games that are 7-12 months away from launch? There seems like a ton of time to optimize starfield.
That's not odd at all. Anyone is in their right to analyze content that the developers put out there. DF will undoubtedly compare and contrast this footage with the retail code and see how it matches up, as they should.

That's the kind of content I like seeing. I like seeing how games evolve and change and come together for the final retail builds.
 

eastmen

Legend
Subscriber
That's not odd at all. Anyone is in their right to analyze content that the developers put out there. DF will undoubtedly compare and contrast this footage with the retail code and see how it matches up, as they should.

That's the kind of content I like seeing. I like seeing how games evolve and change and come together for the final retail builds.
I don't recall them doing this for other games.
 

Dampf

Regular
It seems to use Variable Rate Shading. Maybe they are also using other DX12 Ultimate features like Mesh Shader and Sampler Feedback? That way they could render a lot of geometry and high fidelity textures without taking too much resources. As it's a next gen only game I really, really hope they do. Also hopefully VRS will be more useful there than in current titles.
 

snc

Veteran
Not really, other game genres are using better graphics settings during cut scenes. Going back to racing games it makes perfect sense to use better graphics settings during replay when you have time to focus on visuals and enjoy replay.
it make sense but main worry on df video is that pc version also will have this limitation and for pc doesnt make sense as it scale with future hw
 

mr magoo

Regular
it make sense but main worry on df video is that pc version also will have this limitation and for pc doesnt make sense as it scale with future hw
But this is a different story. The game is realased day one on pc as well and this would look bad for XSX ,msft premium console. And frankly I don’t blame them look what kind of shit storm is happening on twitter over rt in forza. Turn10 had to step in and comment on this situation. I don’t think they are ready to open this can of worms and realase superior version on pc alongside XSX.
 

Jay

Veteran
But this is a different story. The game is realased day one on pc as well and this would look bad for XSX ,msft premium console. And frankly I don’t blame them look what kind of shit storm is happening on twitter over rt in forza. Turn10 had to step in and comment on this situation. I don’t think they are ready to open this can of worms and realase superior version on pc alongside XSX.
I have no idea what's going on, on twitter so don't know what you mean.

But the PC being able to turn up settings beyond what XSX is capable of is no surprise to anyone, and is fully expected.

I still think they should have shown XSX versions though, but I put that down to it not being optimized enough yet.
The benefit of that is it gives everyone a good baseline of what it capable.
PC can mean anything based on configuration, example was it a 3090 or 3050
 

mr magoo

Regular
I have no idea what's going on, on twitter so don't know what you mean.

But the PC being able to turn up settings beyond what XSX is capable of is no surprise to anyone, and is fully expected.

I still think they should have shown XSX versions though, but I put that down to it not being optimized enough yet.
The benefit of that is it gives everyone a good baseline of what it capable.
PC can mean anything based on configuration, example was it a 3090 or 3050
No it’s not a surprise to anyone of course but why does it have to be expected? I mean we are getting same day realase on pc. Not 1 or 2 or 4 years after console realase same day. Does it have to be superior version as well ? I wish it was ofc but I am trying to understand why msft dont want it to be. You will get higher res and better frame rate other than that it will be the same version. And I think this is what they want, to not upset people who got XSX. It would not feel like premium experience on msft most powerful Xbox ever. Personally I’m fine with that.
 

Shortbread

Island Hopper
Legend
Scroll Back in time and you will hear me saying similar commentary about GT7 only having RT reflections in their replays. I find it detewtable that tracing Games are the only Genre to do this - it makes no sense to have better graphics full Stop in a non gameplay Mode.

This. I'm also not a fan of certain games that allow additional photo mode IQ enhancements (like higher quality AA or higher LODs) that aren't present in real-time gameplay. I've seen way too many gamers trying to pass off enhanced photo mode shots as being representative of actual gameplay.
 
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Dictator

Regular
But this is a different story. The game is realased day one on pc as well and this would look bad for XSX ,msft premium console. And frankly I don’t blame them look what kind of shit storm is happening on twitter over rt in forza. Turn10 had to step in and comment on this situation. I don’t think they are ready to open this can of worms and realase superior version on pc alongside XSX.
Console Babies Ruin everything?
 

Shortbread

Island Hopper
Legend
Console Babies Ruin everything?
Could you imagine the shit storm that Sony would receive if their first party titles were day one release titles on PC, and looked vastly superior over their console counterpart? I mean, ungodly amounts of RT, unrestricted LODs/textures, and higher performance for the PC edition would lead to day one comparisons where the PS5 edition would be the S series equivalent (or worst) of the group. Yeah, it may not be in Sony's best interest to allow their first party development houses go straight HAM on PC, especially with todays console warriors vitriol aimed squarely at developers.
 

Remij

Regular
This. I'm also not a fan of certain games that allow additional photo mode IQ enhancements (like higher quality AA or higher LODs) that aren't present in real-time gameplay. I've seen way too many gamers trying to pass off enhanced photo mode shots as being representative of actual gameplay.
Well in that case real-time cinematics which use the highest level quality of character models, additional lighting, and camera angles you can't see during real-time gameplay shouldn't be able to be used to make trailers then either, right? ...Which would make game cinematics and trailers utterly dull and boring.... Imagine games like TLOU2, FF7R, Spider-Man, Gears 5, ect... any game really... using gameplay quality lighting and models during their cinematics. Suddenly these games don't look so good...

TLOU on PS3 was all a lie then... because none of Sony's trailer ever said anything about the cutscenes being pre-rendered videos.. we can do this stuff for most games out there...

Not everything in a trailer is meant to represent "gameplay" and it shouldn't have to. "In-game" cinematics... are part of the game as well.. just as replays with enhanced RT and RTGI are part of the game in Forza Motorsport as well. Forza released two separate trailers showing the two different aspects. I don't see the big deal.
 

Shortbread

Island Hopper
Legend
Well in that case real-time cinematics which use the highest level quality of character models, additional lighting, and camera angles you can't see during real-time gameplay shouldn't be able to be used to make trailers then either, right? ...Which would make game cinematics and trailers utterly dull and boring.... Imagine games like TLOU2, FF7R, Spider-Man, Gears 5, ect... any game really... using gameplay quality lighting and models during their cinematics. Suddenly these games don't look so good...

TLOU on PS3 was all a lie then... because none of Sony's trailer ever said anything about the cutscenes being pre-rendered videos.. we can do this stuff for most games out there...

Not everything in a trailer is meant to represent "gameplay" and it shouldn't have to. "In-game" cinematics... are part of the game as well.. just as replays with enhanced RT and RTGI are part of the game in Forza Motorsport as well. Forza released two separate trailers showing the two different aspects. I don't see the big deal.

My concern isn't the tech, or what part of the graphic pipeline or presentation that it is used in. My gripe is with vague real-time / in-game gameplay taglines, and real-time cinematics that are tightly edited in such a fashion with fast paced and decoupled camera moments (trying to emulate gameplay), then passed off as being real-time gameplay. So yes, this practice needs to die off as well.

Edit: And publishers/developers being vague or coy about what hardware was used during the capture of game footage, needs to go away as well.
 
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mr magoo

Regular
My concern isn't the tech, or what part of the graphic pipeline or presentation that it is used in. My gripe is with vague real-time / in-game gameplay taglines, and real-time cinematics that are tightly edited in such a fashion with fast paced and decoupled camera moments (trying to emulate gameplay), then passed off as being real-time gameplay. So yes, this practice needs to die off as well.

Edit: And publishers/developers being vague or coy about what hardware was used during the capture of game footage, needs to go away as well.
The trailer needs to build hype, if you create presentation of short clips of how the game looks now let’s say one year before realase it may look terrible. I see what you mean but how do you solve it in practical way ? Show the trailer of gameplay with missing assets bad textures and horrible performance?
 

Shortbread

Island Hopper
Legend
The trailer needs to build hype, if you create presentation of short clips of how the game looks now let’s say one year before realase it may look terrible. I see what you mean but how do you solve it in practical way ? Show the trailer of gameplay with missing assets bad textures and horrible performance?

Just be upfront with what's being displayed.

Specifically state that the game footage that is being shown is nonrepresentative of actual gameplay. What you are watching is purely offline or real-time cinematic cutscenes made to emulate future gameplay.

Let console gamers know up front during these major PS5 and XBSX/S events, that any game footage captured on PC should be labeled or stated as such.

And if developers/publishers believe they'll catch heat for poor IQ and/or performance from a real-time gameplay demo, then either wait for a later date when the performance/IQ is there, or be upfront on how things are progressing and what is expected in the future.
 
I have no idea what's going on, on twitter so don't know what you mean.

Basically the Xbox fanboys were taking the piss out of the PS fanboys because Forza does RT during gameplay and GT7 doesn't

Then it came to light that it was actually PC footage of the game with RT.

Then the Sony fan boys started taking the piss of the Xbox fan boys because it was PC footage.

Alex from DF then took some guestimates regarding frame rate, resolution and RT in Forza (Basically said that native 4k at 60fps wasn't happening with RT and questioned PC version being held back)

PS fan boys used this to further take the piss out of the Xbox fanboys.

Forza devs then confirm that only RT reflections are available during gameplay and RT GI is only available in replays and other area's.

Cue XB fan boys taking the piss out of PS fan boys again because it has RT reflections during gameplay, followed by PS fan boys taking the piss back by saying if the reflections in the PC footage look that bad then how bad is the XB version going to look.

It's been quite comical.
 
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