Digital Foundry Article Technical Discussion [2018]

Discussion in 'Console Technology' started by Shifty Geezer, Jan 1, 2018.

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  1. Recop

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    Don't get me wrong, i didn't compare FH3 and FH4 directly. I said that the upgrade between the normal Xbox and the X is rather similar in both games.

    The LOD was better in FH3 too on XBX... FH4 may take the lead overall with more improvements compared to the XB1 version but honestly it's rather close compared to FH3. The main difference to me is the 60fps mode.
     
  2. ultragpu

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    Depends. Some of the graphics techs are literally gameplay changing and if X can use it then it would jeopardize the base model for a whole different experience. If the devs only optimize those effects for cosmetics then it's fine but stuffs like fluid dynamics or volumetric fog used in a puzzle or stealth level could literally cause logistic and visibility issues if one version doesn't support them, just for example. If a game is designed ground up utilizing those effects as core gameplay on the X then the base version is sure as hell out of luck, unless running at drastically low res or sever cut back.
     
  3. iroboto

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    but the hardware is designed to run games at 4K. It was never advertised to run games at 1080p running next gen graphics. I'm not sure if this point applies here. The game isn't bound by Xbox One, it's bound by the fact that this is the most they could accomplish at 4K today. And what an accomplishment it is.
     
  4. higherARC

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    FH4 does take it further than before. PG was able to use ultra res textures on the X, improve many effects like SSR, add some that are entirely off in base like night shadows, and SSAO implementation. FH3 if I remember correctly didn't improve textures at all on X or pc just the AF and res increased. Some effects like motion blur and LOD was improved to match PC but it didn't push as far as FH4 does. So working on the X day 1 allowed devs to create assets at much higher quality and then down size it to base. I just don't see where developing for X over base doesn't allow better performance? Every dev said since X was released that developing for it as lead led to much better improvements
     
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  5. Recop

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    As you said, better assets weren't included in any version, even on PC...

    But we've already seen improved assets on XBX : https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/...f-war-xbox-one-x-one-version-to-rule-them-all

    Having the XBX as the lead platform may give a boost, but the visual difference is slight to me compared to other enhanced games. It's maybe a more impressive upgrade from a technical standpoint though.
     
  6. dten

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    I think you might be looking at this the opposite way. X is the lead platform and FH 4 would not look any different even if there was no XBO version. This is just what a 4K racing game would look like with 6 TF/12 GB and if it turns out to be the best looking racing game ever, they succeeded. That the XBO version looks decent means they did a good job with the down port.
     
  7. Karamazov

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  8. see colon

    see colon All Ham & No Potatos
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    I wonder if the color difference is a result of HDR being resolved wrong on Xbox. Contrast on PS4 definitely is higher and more aesthetically pleasing but I feel like that could be "fixed" on Xbox by adjusting settings on your monitor or TV.
     
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  9. Tkumpathenurpahl

    Tkumpathenurpahl Oil my grapes.
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    Yeah, that caught my attention too. Now, my viewing was nowhere near scientific, but it seemed as though the colour differences between platforms were inconsistent.

    So, at first, the X1X was a different colour palette to the X1 and X1S. But at other points, they seemed to be the same.

    Queeeeeeee?
     
  10. Recop

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    Outside of The Division, still the same problem with UBI games... those assets...
     
  11. Metal_Spirit

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    Not shure about what was made. But the terms upgrade and downgrade in this case require a bit of explanation since in this case they are basicly the same.
    The question is, on a normal free usage of the power of the One and X, although for some this may seem the same, saying that the X is an upgrade from the One, or that the One is a dowgrade from the X, it is quite a diferent thing!
    But in this case they are quite similar. Why?
    For starters this is the Xbox One generation! Not the X generation! This means games will allways be made with Xbox One specs in mind, regardless of development platform.
    Due to that, there are restrictions on how to use the available power, and as such stating that they were using the X as the leading platform almost only means that development is beeing made on that platform, but it doesn't mean programmers are free to use the power as they want, since the One specs must be kept always in mind.
    This means that regardless of where development happens, all the diferences between versions must be asthetical only and never mess with core stuff, and this is why In this case talking upgrades or downgrades becomes a bit similar. If this were not the case we would have a problem since the X can garantee it can run and improve on games designed to run at 1080p and using the full power of the Xbox One. But the One cannot garantee it can run games designed to run at 4K and using the full power of the X! Unless that power is used in asthetics.
     
    #791 Metal_Spirit, Sep 29, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2018
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  12. Silent_Buddha

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    Another way to think of it, if the XBO-X didn't exist how much of what is in FH4 would exist? Not nearly as much and they likely would have stuck with the existing engine from FH3.

    The fact that XBO-X exists and that they targeted the XBO-X as the lead platform means that they implemented things that would never have been implemented if they were only targeting the XBO or if they were targeting the XBO as the primary platform and just upscaling things for the XBO-X.

    This is similar to how Cytek developed FarCry and Crysis. They didn't target current generation PC hardware or older PC hardware, they went one step forward and targeted future generation hardware. Or at least what they predicted future generation hardware would be capable of. Not their fault that in many cases it took multiple generations of hardware to finally run the game well, and that CPUs never did become powerful enough (single threaded high GHz) for everything they wanted to use.

    And yet despite that they could still easily pare things back so they could run on current gen hardware and even past generation hardware.

    Just because you have to support an older generation of hardware does not mean it's a limitation on the latest generation of hardware or in those rare cases (Crysis and the original FarCry) future generations of hardware.

    Well as long as it isn't something ridiculous like the 16x increase in memory size from PS3/X360 to PS4/XBO. Something that is unlikely to ever happen again even in a traditional console generation as consoles are now just a subset of PC hardware. And even that 16x increase in memory size didn't introduce new types of Gameplay that didn't exist before. They just allowed for greater convenience (less level loads and larger levels) and better graphics, but no revolutionary new gameplay.

    Regards,
    SB
     
    #792 Silent_Buddha, Sep 29, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2018
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  13. steveOrino

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    Well the delta in hardware performance between the One and X is enormous, so yeah I can see how people would come to the conclusion that the base hardware is the limiting factor for the X version of the game. I mean you don't want to compromise features, framerate and visuals too much on the base system because then you just pissed a majority of your consumers who feel you are giving them a subpar experience at the expense of the top SKU.
     
  14. dten

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    The X GPU is much faster but the CPU is similar and almost all the advances including 4K are GPU related. If you forget about the OG XBO, what could they have done differently on the X at 4K with that Jaguar CPU?
     
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  15. BRiT

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    https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/...orizon-4-pc-is-one-patch-away-from-perfection

    Forza Horizon 4 on PC is one patch away from perfection
    Complete settings breakdown and performance analysis.

    As things stand, the PC game takes everything that makes the console versions so good and allows users with suitably powerful rigs to play with fewer compromises. So yes, if you want the X's 60fps mode with full 4K resolution and improved quality settings, that's no problem at all. It's all there for you - if you have the hardware capable of making it happen. However, as we shall discover, despite the arrival of a new 'extreme' quality preset, Xbox One X owners get a robust presentation that delivers almost all of PC's visual feature set. It's mostly in ultra territory, with the next-level extreme only providing diminishing returns in terms of visual upgrades.

    Starting at the beginning, Horizon 4's option menu deserves kudos. Users have in-depth control over 20 different performance and visual options. There's full support for 21:9 ultrawide screens (though some cutscenes do clip to 16:9) and if you don't have such a display, field of view can be adjusted for many of the game's camera views. Each graphical preset boasts between three to six different settings, and this time around Playground has also included a frankly brilliant benchmarking tool, reminiscent of the excellent Gears of War 4, and great for balancing settings against hardware. Let's just say that without it, this article would have been a lot more difficult to put together.

     
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  16. Metal_Spirit

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    I can answer that... but first the CPU. The One and X CPU may be quite similar but there is one diference. The clock speeds. And in that term the X is about 30% faster!
    With this in mind lets imagine you would use all the X CPU power for something like... AI. How would you downgrade this for the One? Making NPCs more stupid?
    In other words, there are restrictions on how you can use that extra CPU power because One specs must be kept in mind. Developing on the X instead of the One, does not change this.

    Now about the GPU. It's a fact that 1080p 60 fps can be achieved on the X over 1080p 30 fps on the One, using only half the required power it would take to go for 4K 30 fps.
    But make this game use the same GPU with only 1080p 30 fps on the X and what would you have on the One? Assuming you were limiting yourself and only using the same power as before, you would get 1080p 15 fps. Make this a full 6 Tflops 1080p 30 fps game, and you get a 1080p 7 fps game on the One.
    Now for 4K as you mention, the X can reach 4K, and sometimes even improve on some places. If these improvements are not asthetics only, you may affect gameplay on downgrade.
    Imagine a 4K game heavy on alpha effects, using all the X power, where you could not downgrade to 1080p, same fps 30 fps, keeping all the transparencies. This could affect gameplay heavily, making the game different.
    Note that even mere asthetics can not influence on the game. For instance I remember playing Unreal 2003 with my clan back in the days, and cranking up all detail to max. I was moving crouched in the middle of the grass, having trouble seeing my opponents, and I kept getting killed. I complained on Team Speak: " How the hell do you see me in the middle of the grass?", and got this simple reply: "What grass?".
    Yeap, you guessed, on lower detail there was no grass, and they had a player completely uncovered and exposed moving around. Time to lower detail!
    These are the kind of things that cannot happen. And for this you must always have in mind that the specs of a lower machine cannot give you neither advantages, neither disadvantages, in terms of gameplay.
     
    #796 Metal_Spirit, Sep 30, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2018
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  17. Shortbread

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  18. Karamazov

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    they should really stop trailers analysis, especially when the game releases in a few weeks.
     
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  19. DSoup

    DSoup meh
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    Videos + articles = clicks = ads = money. :yep2: I assume Richard and co like to live in houses with electricity and eat food! :wink:

    edit: neat analysis. This is not about counting pixels but a wider analysis on the broad visual decisions and tech that Rockstar have deployed on the parts of the game that are shown in the videos.
     
    #799 DSoup, Oct 3, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2018
  20. ultragpu

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    Why call it a next gen Open World game when it's releasing in 3 weeks on current gen :)? That said the game does look very stunning and easily one of the best looking of this gen, I do hope for a PS5 roid rage edition remaster in 2 years time.
     
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