Could PlayStation 4 breathe new life into Software Based Rendering?

[joker454]

How about 8 ACE's for up to 64 compute commands , Cery saying that in the next few years the PS4 GPU will be used more for compute & AMD saying the future is less fixed function graphics & telling people to start thinking about writing compute based graphic pipelines?

Maybe they mean to start thinking about it now to be ready when 5tf of gpu compute is available later.

 

[mikiex]

How about 8 ACE's for up to 64 compute commands , Cery saying that in the next few years the PS4 GPU will be used more for compute & AMD saying the future is less fixed function graphics & telling people to start thinking about writing compute based graphic pipelines?

It's already not fixed function - what is wrong with the rendering we have, yes in the future you will be able to write a more unique pipeline you can do interesting things now - but PS4 and Xbox One are not some amazing step forward in tech.

The question is what amazing new advantage will you gain from writing your own pipeline that you can't already do?

 

[taisui]

polygon-based rendering is just so much more efficient than voxel-based, even the "voxel engine" game Resogun is rendering in polygon.

 

[zed]

No, if it didnt happen to a large degree with the ps3 (cell) then its unlikely to happen to a large degree with the ps4.

Keeping in mind the year of construction

 

[Grall]

How about ... ?

That's just a powerpoint slide. Can you point out one game on PS4 (other than perhaps some simplistic indie title) which isn't rendering polygons? Anyhow, you have all these rasterization resources on the chip - it would be near madness not to use them, especially since (as I mentioned), major engines, creative tools and so on all are geared for and assume that you're in fact rasterizing polygons.

 

[onQ]

That's just a powerpoint slide. Can you point out one game on PS4 (other than perhaps some simplistic indie title) which isn't rendering polygons? Anyhow, you have all these rasterization resources on the chip - it would be near madness not to use them, especially since (as I mentioned), major engines, creative tools and so on all are geared for and assume that you're in fact rasterizing polygons.

Cerny said none of the launch games will be using this & that it would be later on in the life of the PS4 when everyone will be using the GPU more for compute.


It seems that no one is paying attention but me.

 

[Grall]

Using GPU compute doesn't mean you're not rendering polygons. Both Killzone and Resogun use GPU compute; perhaps even lots of it depending on what definition you want to use.

You may be paying attention, but you also tend to confuse terminology at times.

 

[onQ]

Using GPU compute doesn't mean you're not rendering polygons. Both Killzone and Resogun use GPU compute; perhaps even lots of it depending on what definition you want to use.

You may be paying attention, but you also tend to confuse terminology at times.

Where did I say anything about them not rendering polygons anymore?


The GPU is designed so they can use a good mixture of fixed function graphics with compute I'm just saying that they will start using compute a lot more. You even see the slides when AMD is talking about using less fixed function graphics & writing compute graphic pipelines yet you're still trying to make it seem as if I'm talking crazy.

 

[taisui]

so would you kindly define what's "software rendering" in you opinion?

 

[onQ]

so would you kindly define what's "software rendering?" in you opinion?

A rendering pipeline that's programmable.


By the way I said Software Based Rendering.

 

[taisui]

huh? The shaders are already...programmable

 

[onQ]

huh? The shaders are already...programmable

Yes but most of the graphics is done with the fixed function pipeline & you're adding to it with the compute shaders.


With the PS4 they could end up running graphic pipelines that are mostly done in compute.

 

[taisui]

how exactly is it fixed function pipeline when it's programmable?

 

[onQ]

how exactly is it fixed function pipeline when it's programmable?

You're joking right?

 

[taisui]

You're joking right?

It's a valid and basic question, if you can't even explain it clearly, then you really are not as technical as you think you are.
Honestly I think you are just quoting stuff that you have no understanding of.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

You're joking right?

No, he's not. Modern GPUs already are software based, by your definition. They have a fixed rendering flow, but the steps are highly programmable. You can already take a triangle and do lots of software-based processing to it. So what's the difference between what we have now and going compute on software rasterisers? There's not a clear move forwards, or sideways, which is why people are talking about voxels as at least a different renderer. Anything triangle based is already highly programmable.

This has been covered in the earlier half of this thread though, IIRC. Your new slide isn't really adding to it. Yes, compute is there for devs to use however they want. But how is one defining software-based rasterising such that programmable pixel and vertex shaders are considered fixed functions when those same processors are going to be doing the compute in the new software renderer? PS4 will be a step along the same path already laid out in a decade of increasingly programmable graphics hardware. For a significant advance, one needs to establish what it is the next step requires. In terms of your thread question, what are the things in rendering that PS4 can breathe new life into?

 

[dragonelite]

Wasn't intel doing this with Larrabee i'm pretty sure i read some presentation on it when i wrote my simple software renderer?

 

[taisui]

Yea the intel Larrabee was as close as we've ever gotten in years, except it's cancelled.

 

[onQ]

It's a valid and basic question, if you can't even explain it clearly, then you really are not as technical as you think you are.
Honestly I think you are just quoting stuff that you have no understanding of.

No, he's not. Modern GPUs already are software based, by your definition. They have a fixed rendering flow, but the steps are highly programmable. You can already take a triangle and do lots of software-based processing to it. So what's the difference between what we have now and going compute on software rasterisers? There's not a clear move forwards, or sideways, which is why people are talking about voxels as at least a different renderer. Anything triangle based is already highly programmable.

This has been covered in the earlier half of this thread though, IIRC. Your new slide isn't really adding to it. Yes, compute is there for devs to use however they want. But how is one defining software-based rasterising such that programmable pixel and vertex shaders are considered fixed functions when those same processors are going to be doing the compute in the new software renderer? PS4 will be a step along the same path already laid out in a decade of increasingly programmable graphics hardware. For a significant advance, one needs to establish what it is the next step requires. In terms of your thread question, what are the things in rendering that PS4 can breathe new life into?

Where did I say that modern GPU do not have programmable shaders?


I asked was he joking because he responded with "how exactly is it fixed function pipeline when it's programmable?" when I was explaining that more graphical tasks could be moved over to compute.

 

[taisui]

so let me ask you this, what exactly is being shifted from where to compute?