Controller Versus Mouse

It's two different kinds of movement.
The mouse is (semi) absolute and the stick is relative.
'Semi' because you can pick it up and put it down if you run out of space.

 

Where have you been? I've seen exactly that playing CS, on the Xbox.

 

And is there auto-aim in that?

 

What do you mean by that? Depth comes from gameplay mechanics not the number of buttons it requires to interact with the game.

Halo: CE and Halo 2 are excellent games, the reviews and the number of people that purchased them should be indicative of their quality. I do not care to compare the difference between console games and PC gamers as it's not really relevant to what makes a good game.

Yes, more precise aiming is one of the benefits you have when using a mouse. I am not arguing against that point, but rather that if with assists (auto-aim is similar to an aim-bot but defiantly not as cheap) a console gamer can compete against a player who is using a mouse / keyboard. If people can enjoy the game with both mouse and gamepad then what is the big difference?

I agree Counter-Strike benefits from precise mouse control and without serious auto-aim it would be pretty hard for gamepad users to compete. The problem is that not all games are like CS and Unreal Tournament in that they require quick reflexes and precise control. If a developer was committed to making a game that would be enjoyable by players using both gamepad and mouse / keyboard I am sure they would be able to accomplish it.

 

Nope.

Even Goldeneye back in the day made auto-aim an option, and it was a kick ass fps on a console for it's time with it off.

 

If you're limited by your device that allows you to interact with the game then you're limited, period. You're limited by the type of gameplay you can have. In an RPG such as WoW you can simply not pull it off on a console, therefore limiting the type of game. That's not good in my book.

If the PC player is not using computer assitance then the console player shouldnt be allowed it either. I find it very unfair knowing that the only reason my opponent can even compete is because something is holding his hand the entire time. Auto-aim does the same thing as an aim-bot but to a lesser degree, both are unfair.

Not every game requieres quick movement, you are right. But this is again another factor where the gamepad limits you where as the mouse and keyboard have no such limit. This is why the mouse and keyboard beat the gamepad. I honestly do not believe a game can be on equal grounds for both gamepad and mouse/keyboard unless the gamepad is given auto-aim, which I will never support.

 

Not using auto-aim requires more skill?

But I agree that even WoW could be played quite well with a gamepad if you change the interface to be able to use all those options. A very simple way to do that is using a radial menu. Use the analog stick for looking and aiming, and the digital one for the menu, for example.

 

How does a keyboard / mouse allow you to interact with a game better than a gamepad? Maybe WoW cannot be done because it requires too many hot-keys, but that does not mean gamepads are not capable of handling MMORPGs. In each case you are providing examples of games that require excessive amounts of precision and button combos, which is not necessary to making a good game. I would like to see a game like Zelda, which does not require precision or crazy amounts of button combinations, done effectively on a keyboard / mouse setup.

How is it unfair if the goal of auto-aim is to make the game fair in the first place? I am for games that allow people to play together on an equal footing and would be happy to see home console users compete against Counter-Strike players if it was possible. The vast majority of people wouldn't care if gamepad users had auto-aim anyway, since they would in theory have to same capabilities as the mouse user.

Fair enough, but I still do not see why quick, precise movements are so important.

 

Do you play WoW? A raidal movement? With a wheel that has 40+ options on it? I dont think that'd work. You could split those up for each face button but then you'd be knocking out other functions also.

No, it just means gamepads are not able to handle WoW. Which again limits your gameplay types. By removing fast and quick movements you remove gameplay types. Making everything slow down is one of my issues with consoles, its like you're moving in slow motion nearly all the time. With a mouse and keyboard you have the option and move work equally well. Games like Zelda that dont need fast movement have been made on the PC, heck an emulator can handle Zelda games just perfectly while using the keyboard.

Using auto-aim at all does not make things fair. That's like saying they should start allowing aimbots in CAL because some people dont like the quick movements needed. Anything that aides the player should always be thrown out. It does not make the game player vs player, instead it would become player vs player and computer.

 

Oh, I'd let the consolers have their auto-aim, they'd need it to make it anywhere even NEAR sporting!

Personally I don't like auto-aim, I find I'm usually a better/quicker shot than the auto aim and I have much better judgment in my targeting selection.

 

From my experience with xbox360 i found the gamepad to have alot of advantages over keyb+mouse.
- More comfortable
- Balanched allocation of buttons (almost 50/50)for left and right hand and not 2 mouse buttons for you right hand and 20 buttons for your left.
- Actual trigers for fire weapons and not crappy little buttons.
- Motion sensitive thumpsticks and triggers permits you to execute more effective and accurate a variety of movements. (zoom in and zoom out quick and accurate , walk/run without waste time to push the toggle walk/run button , drive or fly more accurate etc )
- Rumblle: Transmit a big part of the game's intensity in to your body. Since i played Condemned with rumble if i try to play it again with a keyboard and mouse i always feel that something missing. Its a more lifeless experience.


On the other hand keyb/mouse have only one advantage IMO but this is HUGE (aimming).
If you try to play a real fps with gamepad (or generally any game where the quick and accurate aimming plays a significant role) the most possible is that you are going to live a really bad experience.
For example i wouldnt like to play Serious Sam or Painkiller or any Online FPS with gamepad not for a moment.
If i want to play SS and PKiller or online COD2 and Counter strike i have to do it with Mouse and Keyboard. Period.
And Auto-aiming doesnt work for me. IMO any gamer who respect his self doesnt play with auto-aimming on.

 

40 options? Hm, let's see.

Click 1: open menu
Click 2: select one of eight options (menus)
Click 3: select one of eight options in the menu

Ok, that gives you 64 possible options instead of 40, but whatever. And it doesn't require you to move your hand. Hm, I wonder what is faster: such a radial menu or hunting down the right one of 40 button combinations on a keyboard?

Like, a visual representation? Being able to remap the keys? It's mostly about using the interface that suits the controller best.

Sure, aiming manually is easier with a mouse, and some people might prefer clicking icons with a mouse over using shortcuts, and others might prefer a radial menu. And while aiming with a mouse might be better and faster, so might a radial menu be.

 

Context sensitive menus. The same button performs different functions depending in the context. Console games use this system all the time. Combine this with the system DiGuru mentioned and I think it could work nicely. The 360 version of BFMEII worked pretty well.

 

NRP and DiGuru, how much WoW have either of you played? Taking time to open menu's would get your entire gruop of 40 killed in a raid. You do not hunt for keys on your keyboard either, you memorize them, a quick sudden movement, opening menu's would take much longer than a quick flick of the wrist on a keyboard.

 

"Games I've played with a Gamepad recently include: Dreamfall, Onimusha 3, Silent Hill 4, Lego Star Wars 2, all 3 Prince of Persia games, Demon Stone, & Indigo Prophecy."

i stopped playing Indigo Prophecy because the mini games were just painfull with a keyboard

 

Actually I would say Goldeneye did in 97'

 

WoW with a controller in a 40 man raid as a healer would have me screaming in frustration in about 30 seconds...

"Target one out of 40"
"Cast one of 8 different healingspells"
"Target another out of 40"
"Cast one of 8 different healingspells"

All within a 2-3 seconds and repeat as needed. Include movement, targetting for damage dealing, dispelling or decursing, defensive action, dropping totems and/or buffs which requires an entirely different set of abilities.

I can agree that an interface may be designed that could facilitate the gameplay of WoW with a controller, but the quickness and precision of using the mouse for target selection and keyboard for ability activation is hard to beat.

 

Yeah, WoW isn't possible with a game pad. Could you cram all the stuff into submenus and shit? Certainly. Would it be playable? No. You'd have to slow down combat by a factor of 10.

 

I would say that a simple analysis of the distances involved in the movement of a thumbpad vs. a mouse would suffice to answer the original question. If you assume that a thumbpad works by the deflection of the top of the stick away from the centre, then the maximum deflection from the centre (in an arc) is probably on the order of just over half an inch. I estimate my mouse movements when performing a similar turn are probably on the order of one and a half to two inches. So basically that would mean the mouse has maybe 3 times the resolution of the gamepad.

 

I could easily see how gamepads could be configured for most non-healing roles (e.g. one or a very small number of targets). I could envision something like the shoulder buttons for targeting (ala Tab/Shift-Tab, both at the same time to assist maybe?), using the triggers to control 4 contexts for the 4 buttons, allowing 16 easy to use mappings (no trigger held, right or left held, and both held), etc. Less frequently used abilities could be left to submenus, and of course the combat flag could change the context of some of the mappings.

If you could assign targets you wanted (e.g. main tanks) to a target list (like CTRaid's Player Targets) and use the shoulder buttons to cycle through those instead of nearby enemies (or maybe pushing the analog stick changes the context of the shoulder buttons from friend to foe), you could keep a few people healed quite easily.

Of course, things like text communication (not everyone uses Vent) and macro configuration would be near impossible, and many other things would be much slower (inventory management, auction house, etc.), but I can see how it would be possible. It would never be my style of choice, though.