Console emulation thread.

[eloic]

Hi, guys.

Since this subject is discussed in several different threads, I thought that it would be a good idea to create a thread to discuss emulation, especially console emulation in newer hardware.

Let's start the thread with some questions:

Can the Cell (not "teh Cellz", this is serious) help on PS2 emulation on PS3? I already tried PCSX2 and it is a good PS2 emulator, so, why couldn't engineers create a software taking advantage of the Cell to emulate PS2's EDRAM, if this is a problem?

Mm... Am I asking stupid questions? Maybe... I'm not that techie.

I also invite the mods to include interesting posts on this matter, from other threads.

 

[jonabbey]

Cell can certainly help with PS2 emulation.. Sony proved that by shipping backwards compatible PS3s without the Emotion Engine chip on board.

PS3 with Cell/RSX might be able to do a credible job of emulating some titles, but unless it can be made to emulate the vast majority of titles, it would probably be more headache than it would be worth for Sony to try to provide that.

 

[TheWretched]

CELL already did some of the heavy lifting with PS2 emulation on the PAL 60GB PS3s, as they lacked the EE.

 

[eloic]

Oh... I thought that it emulated the GS, not the Emotion Engine. I was mistaken.

Then, what's exactly the problem? Is more a commercial issue (because they want to keep on their HD remakes line) rather than a technical problem?

 

[ihamoitc2005]

Oh... I thought that it emulated the GS, not the Emotion Engine. I was mistaken.

Then, what's exactly the problem? Is more a commercial issue (because they want to keep on their HD remakes line) rather than a technical problem?

Apparently it is difficult to emulate GS.

Recommended PC specs is very high (dual core CPU + good GPU).

 

[Raqia]

The posts in the PCSX2 blog are very informative. Check out the ones on Dynamic recompilation in particular:

http://pcsx2.net/blog.php
http://pcsx2.net/blog.php?p=4
http://pcsx2.net/blog.php?p=5
http://pcsx2.net/blog.php?p=6

The code caching advantages of dynamic recompilation don't seem like it would benefit especially much from Cell's architecture vs. a typical multi-threaded x86 CPU, and the differences in architecture between Cell/RSX and EE/GS are substantial even w/o other overhead like precision clamping and timing.Though the Cell is theoretically powerful, it's not especially easy to program so there must have been a lot of headaches for sony just as there were for the pcsx2 team. It's taken almost 8 years to get this thing to where it is now, impressively compatible but still buggy. (The best PSX emulator ePSXe was pretty close to perfect in well under 3.)

It's no wonder Sony decided to drop this complex, white elephant of a project. Cell's not gonna be easy to emulate for the next generation of PSX or x86 CPUs either. (If compatibility is needed, emulation is likely since all 3 backers for Cell have stopped its development so a backward compatible CPU is unlikely.)

 

[jonabbey]

It's no wonder Sony decided to drop this complex, white elephant of a project. Cell's not gonna be easy to emulate for the next generation of PSX or x86 CPUs either. (If compatibility is needed, emulation is likely since all 3 backers for Cell have stopped its development so a backward compatible CPU is unlikely.)

All three have stopped development? I hadn't heard that announcement. I heard that IBM was cancelling a specific model of the Cell family, but they did not state that Cell as a whole was being terminated at that time.

 

[Akumajou]

big difference between PCSX2 the PS2 "wannabe" emulator and Cell, or Cell/RSX.

PCSX2 is work in process emulator that is heavily dependant on PC parts or architectures scaling the speed of the emulator, also it is not an accurate emulator to begin with as its obvious why some games run at certain speeds while others do not run, run unpredictably or just do not run as well as the actual hardware. As far as I know PCSX2 being that its work in progress, is being programmed by hobbyists who are supposedly "not getting paid" for it.

Cell or Cell/RSX on the other hard would require Sony to hire and pay the programmer's salary, sure PSX is easy but back when PS2 was introduced there was a hardware PSX chip, when PS3 was introduced PS2 chip was required, we all know the story, people complained about the price of PS3 and sales were down as well as a mentality of not wanting to play last gen on current gen Sony console, so current PS3s had to have this cut out to bring the price down to less complaints and more sales.

God of War I and II were programmed in the C+ PS2 custom GLs and was reprogrammed for a special release on PS3, its not really Cell or Cell/RSX doing any type of emulation, we can assume something similar with Sly Cooper Collection.

The rumored Ico and SotC collection is a bit harder, the games were said to use more low level routines so its going to take some effort in reprogramming the games (notice how I did not say code) to run on PS3 for a BR release.

Its (emulation) not really going to happen unless Sony is willing to pay a dedicated group of programmers, outside of the well known hardware differences and PS2s are still selling high numbers to make satisfactory profits (Ken Kutaragi's design outlasted its expected lifecycle) its really more plausible that a EE/GS or just a GS could be put into future PS3s but even that is just not going to happen even in light of the recent news that PS3s are no longer bleeding money for Sony.

 

[Brad Grenz]

Speaking of console emulation, recent versions of Dolphin feature OpenCL support which provides a good boost in a couple things I've tried on my 4850. I'm talking about a 20-30% increase in emulation speed. I'm not clear on exactly what OpenCL is being used to accelerate, though.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Can the Cell help on PS2 emulation on PS3

Well of course it can help! If you didn't Cell, you wouldn't get very far in your emulaiotn. You need to read this thread which covers the problems of PS2 BC on PS3, with PS2 developers chimmying in.

 

[Raqia]

All three have stopped development? I hadn't heard that announcement. I heard that IBM was cancelling a specific model of the Cell family, but they did not state that Cell as a whole was being terminated at that time.

You might be right. I still speculate that the next PSX wont be using Cell.

 

[Raqia]

big difference between PCSX2 the PS2 "wannabe" emulator and Cell, or Cell/RSX.

PCSX2 is work in process emulator that is heavily dependant on PC parts or architectures scaling the speed of the emulator, also it is not an accurate emulator to begin with as its obvious why some games run at certain speeds while others do not run, run unpredictably or just do not run as well as the actual hardware. As far as I know PCSX2 being that its work in progress, is being programmed by hobbyists who are supposedly "not getting paid" for it.

Cell or Cell/RSX on the other hard would require Sony to hire and pay the programmer's salary, sure PSX is easy but back when PS2 was introduced there was a hardware PSX chip, when PS3 was introduced PS2 chip was required, we all know the story, people complained about the price of PS3 and sales were down as well as a mentality of not wanting to play last gen on current gen Sony console, so current PS3s had to have this cut out to bring the price down to less complaints and more sales.

God of War I and II were programmed in the C+ PS2 custom GLs and was reprogrammed for a special release on PS3, its not really Cell or Cell/RSX doing any type of emulation, we can assume something similar with Sly Cooper Collection.

The rumored Ico and SotC collection is a bit harder, the games were said to use more low level routines so its going to take some effort in reprogramming the games (notice how I did not say code) to run on PS3 for a BR release.

Its (emulation) not really going to happen unless Sony is willing to pay a dedicated group of programmers, outside of the well known hardware differences and PS2s are still selling high numbers to make satisfactory profits (Ken Kutaragi's design outlasted its expected lifecycle) its really more plausible that a EE/GS or just a GS could be put into future PS3s but even that is just not going to happen even in light of the recent news that PS3s are no longer bleeding money for Sony.

Interesting points, though I wonder if the emulators for the Xbox360 and PS3 (sans EE/GS) are all that accurate. They were adding profiles for additional games all the time for the 360 it seems and probably doing massive hacks behind the scenes to get popular games to work; it certainly wasn't fire and forget accurate. Even the SNES is a bitch to emulate completely; BSNES whose project goal was accuracy requires a Core2 to run adequately I think.

 

[Akumajou]

Interesting points, though I wonder if the emulators for the Xbox360 and PS3 (sans EE/GS) are all that accurate. They were adding profiles for additional games all the time for the 360 it seems and probably doing massive hacks behind the scenes to get popular games to work; it certainly wasn't fire and forget accurate. Even the SNES is a bitch to emulate completely; BSNES whose project goal was accuracy requires a Core2 to run adequately I think.

I'm starting to wonder what this thread is really about...

Lets separate the platforms, emulation software is not going to work like magic and improve videogaming, sometimes like emulating old arcade hardware to replay old classics, it helps but alot of times its kind of questionable as to why focus on it at all.

Microsoft's Direct3d or DirectX platforms are the Xbox 1, the xbox 360 and the IBM Clone PC that runs Microsoft Windows Operating Systems and use Direct3D/X as an API for videogames.

For a game dev going to XBox 1, Microsoft is going to insist that you use the DirectX based tools there are some games that claim not to have done this but the reason for using DirectX becomes apparent when you switch to developing games on Xbox 360 where microsoft insists that there is no alternative to Direct X api tools like XNA.

Its easier to port from a DirectX console platform to the PC because Direct X has its own codepath and is not really going to be making direct calls to the hardware its on since all it has to do is conform to DX api so its easy for MS to release a profile update that can enable certain games to work.

Its also easier for a hobbyist to program an emulator to emulate XBox 1 given the hardware and the Dx version, is this actually happening is a completely different subject.

 

[eloic]

Apparently it is difficult to emulate GS.

Recommended PC specs is very high (dual core CPU + good GPU).

I know.

I only say that I tried this emulator with a butt-shitty computer several years ago and it could play "Virtua Fighter 4" at decent speeds so... what can't "teh Cell" do?

 

[eloic]

I'm starting to wonder what this thread is really about...

You are speaking on the subject, as well as other users. That's it.

 

[Squilliam]

So, when will they have a working emulator for the Xbox 360? They have the technology, they have the power, they can rebuild this console... as a PC!!!

 

[Akumajou]

You are speaking on the subject, as well as other users. That's it.

Because of a couple of emulators for PC have made news articles, namely PCSX2, it almost seems like someone is advertising it, not for sale but to get attention.

So, when will they have a working emulator for the Xbox 360? They have the technology, they have the power, they can rebuild this console... as a PC!!!

and that is the strangest question of all why is there no real fully working xbox 1 emulator or even a xbox 360 emulator, it is really strange that there is no focus on that yet work on a Wii emulator got so much progress very quickly.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

and that is the strangest question of all why is there no real fully working xbox 1 emulator or even a xbox 360 emulator, it is really strange that there is no focus on that yet work on a Wii emulator got so much progress very quickly.

A bit part of it for the people working on the emulators is actually figuring out what is being done by all the components in a console and then thinking of ways to emulate it accurately or semi-accurately.

With the Xbox 1, it's so similar to PC that I think people just got bored.

Much of the time people that work on emulators aren't really concerned whether it'll run games. Running games is just proof of their emulator working. In other words, many don't start working on an emulator for the purpose of running games, but more for the discovery and challenge. At least that's the feel I got when I was heavy into keeping track of these things.

So again, that kind of makes Xbox 1 the least interesting platform to emulate.

The only exception I can think of is when one group started up a project for a "for profit" PS1 emulator. I think they actually got 2 or 3 releases of it into retail stores before they shut down.

Regards,
SB

 

[jonabbey]

I know.

I only say that I tried this emulator with a butt-shitty computer several years ago and it could play "Virtua Fighter 4" at decent speeds so... what can't "teh Cell" do?

Sony is not going to put out an emulator that can't achieve 95% + compatibility with the PS2. Putting out a "Virtua Fighter 4" emulator wouldn't cut it.. Sony would get more bitching about individual games not working than they'd get benefit from having the emulation available at all, imho.

Being able to emulate some subset of games is not the same thing as being able to emulate all of them.

 

[PeterT]

Speaking of console emulation, recent versions of Dolphin feature OpenCL support which provides a good boost in a couple things I've tried on my 4850. I'm talking about a 20-30% increase in emulation speed. I'm not clear on exactly what OpenCL is being used to accelerate, though.

Texture format decode/conversion IIRC.