Carmack Quakecon keynote discussion

Discussion in 'Console Industry' started by Rangers, Aug 13, 2009.

  1. Rangers

    Legend

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2006
    Messages:
    12,313
    Likes Received:
    1,117
    The stream is live here. He's speaking now.

    http://www.ustream.tv/channel/quakecon-2009-live-stream

    Should be a recording of it up on that page too automatically after, if I understand how Ustream works.

    For his PS3/360 comments, relatively brief and restated what he's said before, 360 is easier to work with, PS3 has a bit more compute power. The one tidbit he added was that the extra compute power in PS3 does sometimes matter now, and he mentioned the decompression of Rage's data as being an example. Beyond that he made sure to point out that PS3 and 360 are both excellent, far better than what he's had in the past, and closer together in capability than past platforms as well. He also mentioned that PS3's (third) place in the market is one reason it generally gets the short end from devs.

    Overall he's not saying much of interest at all on the console front, so this may be a short thread.

    Some interesting discussion about parallelism negatively impacting latency these days, he says it's a real problem.

    Doesn't know about next gen consoles, but thinks Intel will be gunning really heavily for Larrabee in a console. "Foregone conclusion" that MS and Sony will be using massively parallel architectures next gen, only Nintendo may not.

    PS3 is in no mans land with 8 processors..more than you can easily hand schedule but not enough to be a "sea of processors" either. But also mentioned earlier that coding on PS3 prepares the code to be robust for todays processors.

    On onlive type services..latency the issue, but a lot more classes of games than people think, could be feasible, example being "The Sims", twitch games like Quake would be the hardest..upside is client side cheating vanishes. Key will be optimizing networks stacks for reasonable latency. Definitely thinks its not a crazy idea and has very interesting potential.
     
    #1 Rangers, Aug 13, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 14, 2009
  2. mrcorbo

    mrcorbo Foo Fighter
    Veteran

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2004
    Messages:
    3,553
    Likes Received:
    1,970
    Yeah, not a lot of console discussion, but an interesting talk none the less. Covered:


    • IPhone development
    • Electric cars (comparisons between a 1000HP at-the-rear-wheels Ferrari he owned and the Tesla Roadster he now owns and why 90% of the time the Tesla is more fun)
    • Building rockets
    • Code structure (including how ugly game-code looks to "systems guys")
    • The challenges of long development times (like having to work with 4-5 year old code that may have been conceived by someone no longer with the company)
    • How ID was able to (eventually) benefit financially by releasing their old source code
    • The down-sides of being an independant developer (Bungie, you listening?)
    • What the ZeniMax deal means to the future of ID
    • More that I have forgotten or was already covered in the OP
    He rambled in parts, but there was so much interesting stuff in there I was afraid to tune out in case I missed something.
     
  3. RancidLunchmeat

    Veteran

    Joined:
    May 11, 2005
    Messages:
    3,026
    Likes Received:
    618
    Location:
    In your closet
    With all the talk that goes back in forth in all these speeches about the combination CPU/GPU in PS3 vs 360 and which has better balance, etc.. does anybody ever mention MEMORY?

    I know there have been some comments about the way the memory is distinctly divided in the PS3 makes it more difficult than the unified memory on the 360, but does anybody remiss about the 512 total for both?

    I keep reading about how long this generation is going to last (2013?? before next console launch), and I just can't believe it. My parents, who don't know anything about anything, just bought a new HP Pavilion PC for $550. It came with 8GB of RAM.

    Do we even need NEW consoles with huge leaps in CPU or GPU and the accompanying price tag? Wouldn't we all benefit significantly and obviously from consoles with CPU/GPU bumps and 8GB of RAM? And wouldn't that be doable at a more reasonable launch price?

    I'd like to hear some developers/programmers talk about the restrictions due to the 512KB of RAM. I've got to believe that's the real bottleneck here.
     
  4. 2real4tv

    Veteran

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2007
    Messages:
    1,167
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Upstate NY
    OT but it would be nice if you could upgrade the RAM in consoles
     
  5. deathindustrial

    Regular

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2007
    Messages:
    800
    Likes Received:
    59
    Location:
    Soviet Kanuckistan
    No thank you. A large part of the joy of going with a console system is to avoid the PC upgrade train.

    The main reason PCs need large amounts of RAM is due to OS bloat. Unless you are editing massive files in Photoshop or loading a symphony worth of sample files into Logic 8GB is ridiculous. Consoles ditch most of the OS bloat so can get by with a lot less system RAM (not to say they could not use more, but a desktop PC is not a good comparison).

    IMHO of course.

    Cheers
     
  6. tongue_of_colicab

    Veteran

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2004
    Messages:
    3,399
    Likes Received:
    625
    Location:
    Japan
    Thats what you get if you screw up a perfectly good car by giving it more power than it ever was designed to handle.

    That isnt really true anymore. These days you can get away with very little upgrading and keep things cheap. Certainly these days its nothing like a couple of years back when you had to buy 400 euro videocars quite often of you wanted decent performance.

    Besides that ram is so cheap these days that most people with a crapload of ram probably bought it just because its so cheap. I only got 2gb but I never had any problems with games or anything so I dont think the OS and everything is thatbloated.
     
  7. Mobius1aic

    Mobius1aic Quo vadis?
    Veteran

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2007
    Messages:
    1,649
    Likes Received:
    244
    In relation to hardware, I think we've also had the joy of being able to use the same OS for the past 8 years with Windows XP. Even though DX10 is somewhat starting to come into it's own, plenty of PC gamers have no real need to upgrade out of XP unless they feel a real need to go 64 bit for more memory in which case someone would be smarter going to Vista x64 than using XP x64. Even Crysis, the poster child of crazy DX10-ness and using ass loads of RAM looks and runs fantastic on an XP machine with 2 GB of RAM and an appropriate video card (be it the 8800GTS 320 MB in my last build or the Radeon 4670 1 GB in my current). Plus neither my notebook or my desktop has the graphical horsepower to justify running it or Warhead in DX10 mode with very high settings at higher than 720p level rendering. DX9 mode at high settings looks great already.
     
  8. Simon F

    Simon F Tea maker
    Moderator Veteran

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2002
    Messages:
    4,560
    Likes Received:
    157
    Location:
    In the Island of Sodor, where the steam trains lie
    Does anyone know if recorded version is available (anywhere) yet?
     
  9. thana

    Newcomer

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2003
    Messages:
    32
    Likes Received:
    2
  10. Simon F

    Simon F Tea maker
    Moderator Veteran

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2002
    Messages:
    4,560
    Likes Received:
    157
    Location:
    In the Island of Sodor, where the steam trains lie
  11. Rodéric

    Rodéric a.k.a. Ingenu
    Moderator Veteran

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2002
    Messages:
    3,976
    Likes Received:
    837
    Location:
    Planet Earth.
    Thank you ! :)

    Looks like John Carmack is a smart and nice guy.
     
  12. TheWretched

    Regular

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2008
    Messages:
    830
    Likes Received:
    23
    Thanks for the link and...

    John Carmack is, as Roderic said, a really nice guy. And it was a very interesting keynote too!
     
  13. mrcorbo

    mrcorbo Foo Fighter
    Veteran

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2004
    Messages:
    3,553
    Likes Received:
    1,970
    ...unless you're PhysX.

    "I hope Nvidia didn't pay a whole lot of money for them." :lol:
     
  14. Laa-Yosh

    Laa-Yosh I can has custom title?
    Legend Subscriber

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2002
    Messages:
    9,568
    Likes Received:
    1,452
    Location:
    Budapest, Hungary
    I've never really understood the fuss about Physix, it was so obvious to me that there's no future in that...

    About Carmack's keynote.
    - Interesting note about the uncertainity of the next gen consoles. Like, id needs to have a backup plan if they start a third tech5 project now, just in case someone jumps the gun.
    - Am I the only one kinda confused about id pushing their IP a lot more aggressively? Okay, Rage is all new, but do we really need so many Wolf, Quake and Doom games?
    - Also, the new Wolfenstein game seems to be very close to a disaster... or is there serious interest for it anywhere?
    - What I've missed from his topics is 3D. With the Avatar movie and game it feels like it'll become a must have feature pretty soon, particularly because it makes any kind of CG, realtime or prerendered, a lot more believable. Next year it'll probably become a big part of his keynote.
     
  15. Richard

    Richard Mord's imaginary friend
    Veteran

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2004
    Messages:
    3,508
    Likes Received:
    40
    Location:
    PT, EU
    I can always play one more DOOM game but I get your point and agree. I believe Quake needs to take a long vacation and Wolf too if the one coming later this month bombs.

    IMO It's going to sell on name alone. Every interview or preview I read about it shows me more and more features and design decisions I dislike. I've bounced back so much on what is going to suck less about the game, SP, MP, it has guns, it's a FPS, <grasps straws>... <sigh>

    Overall, I thought it was a pretty boring keynote. A lot of the points he talked about was just retreading last year's keynote and even the one before that. There was a bit of follow-up on certain issues like whether QL is profitable on in-game ads alone and whatnot but... no one in the audience really prodded JC on the big issues either. Yeah, someone asked about OnLive but he mostly just reiterated what he had said 2 years ago when OnLive hadn't yet been announced.

    The most interesting tidbits were confirmation that Rage (and id Tech 5 probably) are really going for precomputed visuals. There's no dynamic path for the PC version and there's isn't even an alternative dynamics path for licensees - he mentions using the dynamics path makes it run slower than D3 because they took out a lot of the optimisations. Another was id not knowing how MP is going to work out with Rage because of the storage issue (they had confirmed COOP in the past). Probably the most interesting fact for me was the whole parallel processing increasing latency discussion and the LRB mention. Also, talking about multicore programming the Sega 32x. Little things.

    He said it himself, he hasn't worked on any high-end graphical research like he had planned so this keynote was very boring from that standpoint.
     
  16. AzBat

    AzBat Agent of the Bat
    Legend Veteran

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2002
    Messages:
    5,918
    Likes Received:
    1,718
    Location:
    Alma, AR
    Yep, he is nice. Anybody at E3 in 97 when he gave away his Ferrari? I was, that was so cool.

    Tommy McClain
     
  17. Rangers

    Legend

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2006
    Messages:
    12,313
    Likes Received:
    1,117
    There was some gaffers saying that apparently back in the day Carmack was actually an egomaniacal jerk or something, from the Masters of Doom book (which may have sensationalized, anyway). He certainly seems nice enough today.

    It makes me want to read the book, anyway.
     
  18. Gabrobot

    Regular

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2004
    Messages:
    346
    Likes Received:
    4
    Sure you're not getting confused with John Romero?

    Yeah, I was kinda disappointed to hear that...I'm really impatient to see Doom 4 since it's kinda hard to see how id Tech 5 stacks up since it's running at twice the framerate of most games. And I'm curious if there are any technical differences between Rage id Tech 5 and Doom 4 id Tech 5...it sounded like the Doom 4 project was kind of off on it's own level (both figuratively and literally).
     
  19. Richard

    Richard Mord's imaginary friend
    Veteran

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2004
    Messages:
    3,508
    Likes Received:
    40
    Location:
    PT, EU
    IIRC, it was your average adolescent hacker mentality. If memory serves JC got arrested for some petty anti-social behaviour of that nature.

    Before this revelation, when it was mentioned the next DOOM would be using id Tech 5 with a slightly improved renderer, I thought they would shed the prebaked lighting, improve the shadow rez/samples, throw in more monsters on screen and voilá: 30fps game. Now I'm not sure.
     
  20. jlippo

    Veteran Regular

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2004
    Messages:
    1,299
    Likes Received:
    388
    Location:
    Finland
    I wonder how feasible it would be to separate the baked lighting and albedo or even a direct and indirect light.
    Each component should compress quite nicely and you would have a lot more freedom with shading.

    I also wonder about storing lighting in spherical harmonics per texel and having a proper low/mid frequency lighting, metallic corridors of Doom would look incredible. ;)
     
Loading...

Share This Page

  • About Us

    Beyond3D has been around for over a decade and prides itself on being the best place on the web for in-depth, technically-driven discussion and analysis of 3D graphics hardware. If you love pixels and transistors, you've come to the right place!

    Beyond3D is proudly published by GPU Tools Ltd.
Loading...