Best 4K HDR TV's for One X, PS4 Pro

Discussion in 'Console Industry' started by Rangers, Apr 29, 2017.

  1. London-boy

    London-boy Shifty's daddy
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    Pretty sure standard Blurays also have lossless soundtracks. Some even have the same Atmos tracks as the UHD versions.

    But yeah, other than that there’s not much.

    I can clearly hear a huge difference on my system between different tracks, but it really does depend on the system. Heck, some systems don’t even support the HD tracks anyway (only standard dts and DD).
     
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  2. Barrabas

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    Yes that's true, but you have to check each product for support. Also be aware some TV's only pass through 2 channel stereo on ARC. Fully certified HDMI 2.1 guarantees eARC.
     
  3. wco81

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    Yeah my Denon AVR has HDMI 1.4. I think it supports DTS but not sure about DTS MA.
     
  4. London-boy

    London-boy Shifty's daddy
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    I stand corrected!!

    Is eARC only part of HDMI 2.1?

    So hard to keep up with this.
     
  5. novcze

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    some soundbars and TVs have been updated to support eARC, so it's not 2.1 exclusive feature.
     
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  6. Silent_Buddha

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    Hmmm, so just out of curiosity I went and looked at Rtings ongoing burn in test for LG's 2017 panels. Specifically the C7 TVs. I wish they also did the same for the C8s. Hoping they'll do something with the C9s but I'm doubtful they will.

    https://www.rtings.com/tv/learn/real-life-oled-burn-in-test

    The burn in images were last updated 04/04/2019 at 8000 hours. That's...
    • ~333 days of 24 hours per day usage.
    • ~1000 days (almost 3 years) of 8 hours per day usage.
    Most people will probably use theirs for less than 8 hours a day, but we're gamer's here right? So, 8 hours is probably a good average?

    Anyway, the 4 TVs that were showing rotating and varied content show virtually no burn in as expected.

    The max brightness TV that was only showing CNN content however was pretty bad.

    [​IMG]

    What was curious, or encouraging to me, however was their TV calibrated to 200 NITs that was showing the same CNN content.

    [​IMG]

    It's still there, but likely not noticeable on a non-uniform background. And that's with a pathological worst case scenario. That brightness is close to what my monitors are calibrated to. Which is making me reconsider trying one for my PC display. Probably still won't do it, but certainly makes it seem like it may not be too bad. Especially as my current 3 monitor setup has all the permanent things (task bar and desktop icons) on the left most display. So the OLED display would only have to display things I'm actively working on or games I'm actively playing. As I don't ever do anything full screen if I can help it, I'd just need to get into the habit of moving my windows around every so often.

    One thing those images certainly do, however. They really highlight the crappy grey uniformity of all of my LCD displays, even ones that were noted in reviews as having exceptional (for LCDs) grey uniformity. So even at 8000 hours of CNN burn in on the 200 nits OLED, it still beats the grey uniformity that my monitors had out of the box. That's just sad.

    I'd be really interested to see how the HDR on the 2018 and more importantly the 2019 OLED displays are affected by long term burn in.

    Regards,
    SB
     
  7. BRiT

    BRiT (╯°□°)╯
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    What do you do for Web Browsers and their pemanant header(s)? While the rest of the pages change, the top menu section usually stays the same. That's what causes temporary image retention on my ancient 2005 24" Dell LCD.
     
  8. Silent_Buddha

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    Like I mentioned, I'd need to get used to moving the browser windows around every so often. If it needs to be up in a static location for long period of time, I'd just move it to one of the 2 side monitors.

    Still that pathological 200 nits CNN test makes me think even if I were to forget and have a browser windows in the same place for a few days, it probably still wouldn't have noticeably bad permanent burn in when the display is calibrated for 200 nits or slightly more.

    Then again that burn in test of theirs so far only covers roughly 3 years at 8 hours per day and I usually use my displays for 5-10 years. So that would be my primary concern is how would the display look after say 5 years of my typical PC usage even with all static components on a different monitor?

    One amusing thing this whole thought exercise (because I'm not likely to pull the trigger and experiment with an OLED as my main monitor just yet) makes me think of, however. Converting my existing 49" main monitor into portrait orientation as a side monitor. :D. Now that would be interesting.

    That said, I'd really like to get rid of all of my IPS monitors as black is never black but more of a really dark grey, no matter how good the panel and backlight is. VA panels are similar but at least black is a much darker...dark grey then. Even the new micro-LED sets don't change things that significantly. There's far more backlights, but each micro-LED still covers a rather large amount of pixels. Just makes that light bleed and haloing smaller.

    So many trade-offs no matter which display tech you go with. At the end of the year when the 55" C9's hopefully drop to around 1.5k to 1.7k USD as the C8s and C7s did, I might jump on one and experiment. That would also be my first greater than 60 Hz flat panel display. Although I haven't looked to see if the 1070 HDMI connector supports higher than 60 Hz at 4k.

    Regards,
    SB
     
    #1328 Silent_Buddha, Apr 28, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2019
  9. BRiT

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    I hoped you had found some magic setting in the browsers or better yet an addon program to run in the background that adjusts window(s) menu contrast or color to proactively prevent image-retention.

    I have my desktop backgrounds change every 15 minutes between various nature scenes so that helps somewhat.

    And yet the Recycle Bin remains in a static spot as I keep forgetting to remove that completely from the desktop. I need to fix that.

    EDIT: Fixed that desktop Recycle Bin to not display.
     
  10. Silent_Buddha

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    Currently my oldest main computer display is a HP LP3065 from around 2008. There's no image retention on that one even though the monitor has averaged about 10-12 hours a day showing the same icons and taskbar. Granted it was moved from main monitor (landscape with taskbar and icons) to side monitor (portrait with taskbar and icons in different location) about 3 years ago. The only issue with it is slightly warmer colors and whites as the CFL backlight gets older.

    I think the 2005 24" Dells back then used MVA panels from Samsung? I wonder if those had retention issues. I also have one of those, but no retention. Then again it only hosted the taskbar and icons for about 3 years before it became a portrait mode side monitor as a document reference monitor when doing work on the main monitor. And then retired except for occasional use about 3 years ago.

    One thing that will be different is that with an LCD, retention issues should show up on an all black background. OLED, OTOH won't show retention on an all black background as the pixels should each be turned off. It'd be most visible on a uniform background of some color. As I prefer all black backgrounds when using my desktop, potential burn in at least wouldn't be visible on the desktop background. Then it's a question of whether it would be noticeably visible without looking for it when displaying the contents of windows or games.

    Regards,
    SB
     
    #1330 Silent_Buddha, Apr 28, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2019
  11. BRiT

    BRiT (╯°□°)╯
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    The best Tech from 2005 is laughable today, but I keep waiting for that next thing right around the corner. The last year it was UHD HDR.

    If you look above the browser you can still see the Menu icons from where the favorites folder menu bar was at. The image retention will go away within an hour, but once you know it happens you see it everywhere. And this pic is from an old tablet too with smaller camera lens so it blurs things too.

    temp_image_retention.png

    Edited the photo with Yellow border to show what part has temporary image retention of the other.
     
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  12. Silent_Buddha

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    Yeah I don't get that with my current IPS displays. Almost makes me want to hook up the 2005 24" Dell and see if it does something similar. Too much work though. :D

    Regards,
    SB
     
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  13. BRiT

    BRiT (╯°□°)╯
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    Oh yeah, forgot to mention that VRR (Variable Refresh Rate) is now on the list of things to wait on before I pick up a new PC Monitor. It's been so long that it's now become laughable that I keep on waiting. It'll be even worse when next week my new 10" Tablet arrives with an AMOLED screen. Even the display on my 4 year old 8" tablet puts this 24" LCD to shame.

    Definitely keep us informed what you end up doing and what you find out.

    I'm also slowly facing the reality that I also need to replace my Panasonic V10 1080p Plasma 54" set. I think I'd be plenty happy with even the 2018 TCL R615/R617.
     
  14. Entropy

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    No! Never!
    Or at least, not yet. VRR will be neat, admittedly, but otherwise I can see my set hanging on for a few more years. Great for film and low input lag make these plasmas very hard to improve on for overall performance.
     
  15. Pressure

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    I'm still using two 23" Apple Cinema Displays (8-bit IPS panel) I bought with my Mac Pro (Early 2008) and they don't show any image retention. I calibrate them once a month though with displayCAL and my colorimeter at 120 nit for D65 (primarily for print and web).

    The same can be said for my decade old LG 42" IPS TV, which is due for a change sometime next year when DP 1.4 and HDMI 2.1 are the norm. I specifically bought the LG because of the IPS panel though.
     
  16. Dr Evil

    Dr Evil Anas platyrhynchos
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    I decided to retire my well served Samsung 55" KS8000/9000, which I bought little over two years ago. Before I had that I briefly had the 78" curved model of the same year, but had to return it due to the edge led system failing quite badly at that size... The 55" model doesn't have huge issues with light bleeds and stuff like that, but they are definitely noticeable and I miss the impact those 78" made on movies and games.

    Today I went to look for TVs and noticed the store was selling some demo units. I browsed them and there was a 2018 Samsung 65" Q9FN, which I was about ready to pull the trigger, before I noticed that there was a 75" model of the same kind in the box in a corner separately from the others... I asked an employee what is that doing there and initially he told me it wasn't on sale, but after rechecking from the computer it was in fact for sale and quite likely the same demo unit I drooled there about 6 months ago. The price was 2499€ with a 5 year warranty and I was very happy to seal the deal on that one.

    It does not have HDMI 2.1, but has some features like freesync and for me 60Hz at 4k and 120hz at 1440p is good enough. I'm getting it on Monday, can't wait to set it up and see it in action :)
     
    #1336 Dr Evil, May 15, 2019
    Last edited: May 15, 2019
  17. London-boy

    London-boy Shifty's daddy
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    Nice! That’s one big telly you got!
     
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  18. Silent_Buddha

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    OK, so, now that I've gone out and tested a bunch of HDR TVs to see if one would be suitable for using on my PC for media and gaming, I've come to one conclusion...

    LCD panel TVs all suck. The best TVs from Samsung and Sony use VA panels which give decent blacks but really crappy viewing angles. LG's IPS TVs have much better viewing angles, but worse blacks. And local dimming on all of them is horrible, although Samsung and Sony's implementations are much better than LG's implementation. Things get significantly worse when HDR is enabled. The haloing is absolutely horrendous, IMO. It's not so bad for movies unless the movie is predominantly really dark with some bright highlights (HDR is so much worse in this case than SDR where the local dimming haloing isn't quite as in your face). But in games and especially PC use, local dimming just sucks donkey balls if you have a dark game or dark Windows background (which I prefer). It's annoying to see the local dimming zones brightening or darkening an area that should just be dark.

    OLED is just worlds better with 2 caveats. It doesn't get as bright as the brightest Samsung and Sony sets, but this isn't a problem for me as I generally use it in a dimly lit room anyway. The other is that while some on AVS forums have had no burn in with 2+ years of PC use with their OLED (as long as the TV isn't calibrated for max brightness and they don't leave pathologically bad things on screen for days on end), it's still obviously a concern.

    That said, while I was thinking of picking up a HDR LCD TV while I wait to pick up a B9 or C9 OLED in the fall, I think I'm going to have to reconsider. If I wasn't planning on getting an OLED TV at the end of the year, I'd probably pick up an LCD HDR TV and just disable local dimming. Lose the deeper blacks, but wouldn't have to be constantly annoyed by the local dimming halos.

    I almost got a B8 as some sellers were clearing out stock on Ebay selling new sets for ~1k USD, but the promise of HDMI 2.1 and 4k/120 Hz on the 9 series is too good to pass up.

    Bleh, guess I'll be waiting a bit longer to have HDR in my house.

    I'd mention MicroLED, but that's still so far in the future, that even when it releases for the consumer market it's going to be hellishly expensive. TV panel makers still haven't figured out how to make large panels that are even remotely cost effective...for the early adopters market.

    Regards,
    SB
     
  19. London-boy

    London-boy Shifty's daddy
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    I was in the same boat and ended up getting a Sony LCD - now, granted, it was the best LCD at the time, the ZD9, and still is bloody amazing but the whole OLED vs LCD took me ages to solve. Ultimately I went LCD, because of the risk of burn in. I came from Plasma and with the type of games I play (and the hours I spend on them non stop), I had some bad experiences that I had no interest in repeating.

    Viewing angles do bother me, rarely the blooming (each TV handles local dimming differently). But really, I felt that I had no choice.

    If I were in the market for a new TV now, I'd look at TCL LCD who have a new backlight tech with thousands and thousands of dinamycally lit LEDs - They call it Mini LED, though I'm not sure when it's out or even if it's really that good. Sony is still a good bet, I can really attest to their local dimming, and the HDR is simply out of this world because of that higher brightness.



    Or wait :)
     
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  20. Silent_Buddha

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    Yeah, I checked out the Sony TVs and while good, the local dimming performance is still similar to Samsungs top end TVs. Ultimately both were sub par for me. And the narrow view angles basically killed it for me, although I did like the deeper blacks...assuming you sat in the perfect position.

    Unfortunately, as this was intended for PC use as well, narrow viewing angles is a complete no go as you can easily see the color shift with the display being just 3-4 feet in front of your face when your view panned across the screen.

    One thing that might have helped is curved screen VA based TVs. But I think Samsung are the only ones still making those, and there weren't any in the local shops here for me to try out.

    The TCL mini-LED TV just means more local dimming zones. There will still be haloing, it's just that the haloing will be smaller. An improvement but still an annoyance. I'd be willing to take a look if I get a chance. However, it's likely to also use a VA panel, which again is going to kill it for the intended use case.

    That basically just leaves IPS panel TVs and OLED for the foreseeable future. And local dimming for LG (does anyone else use IPS panels?) is way behind both Samsung and Sony.

    If I was using this primarily for console gaming then VA panel TVs would be an option but then it gets a bit annoying anytime there's more than 1 or 2 of us watching content or playing games, as someone inevitably will have to view color shifted content.

    Bleh. :) There's no perfect option, but at the end of this year, I'll be getting a 9 series LG OLED and seeing how it fares as a PC display for me. I'm already using my current setup how I plan to use it with OLED and making sure I build habits to ensure the risk of burn in is extremely low.

    Something that makes me slightly less concerned is that both Dell and HP are releasing OLED display based laptops. That combined with reading about PC user experiences with the 7 series and 8 series OLEDs on AVS forums makes me slightly less concerned. I know I'll get at least 2-4 years of low risk burn in. What concerns me most is how it will far with 5-10 years of use.

    If I wasn't using this for PC, then I wouldn't have any qualms about using an OLED long term after seeing the ongoing Rtings OLED burn in test using LG B7 TVs. Basically outside of the max brightness pathlogical case, after 2+ years the burn in on the next worst low brightness (calibrated for a dimly lit room) pathlogical case is still better than the grey uniformity of the best brand new LCD panel TVs.

    Either way, I'm mentally prepared if the OLED TV ends up with unacceptable burn in after a few years. It's an experiment on my part after all. :)

    Regards,
    SB
     
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