Baseless Next Generation Rumors with no Technical Merits [post E3 2019]

Discussion in 'Console Industry' started by BRiT, Jun 9, 2019.

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  1. MrFox

    MrFox Deludedly Fantastic
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    Not sure about the nose, but it's the perfect shape to put your appendage balls deep.

    There. Someone said it. Move along now....
     
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  2. Shifty Geezer

    Shifty Geezer uber-Troll!
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    What's the confirmation on that? Because patents are for technology, not designs. If there's a method and apparatus for cooling a computing device, it should be patented and documented (maybe not published yet?). Otherwise, if it's the design, that would be registered as you cannot patent it.

    If there's a confirmed patent with a number we can look up, we should be able to see exactly why it's designed the way it is!
     
  3. Silent_Buddha

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    Mostly true.

    There is one thing both next gen consoles are going to have that PC won't be able to match at launch, and perhaps not ever.

    The SSD storage subsystem. As has been discussed here before, there are some aspects of the storage subsystem in the next gen consoles that are likely possible only because they don't have to service a robust OS environment where a user is free to run whatever they wish to run, including their own programs and all kinds of things that could potentially behave in unexpected ways (here's looking at you device drivers, for example).

    Regards,
    SB
     
  4. Globalisateur

    Globalisateur Globby
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    We don't have any idea of Microsoft specific SSD solution. For all we know it could be a standard 1TB SSD plugged into to the console and then still using PC compatible filesystem. Which would make sense as their games are also made for PC in mind.

    The last Halo (Infinite) reveal was running on a PC. For nextgen games I wouldn't be surprised if most of their first party titles are first done and showed using a high end PC, then ported to console.

    Using SSD as a additional (very slow) memory to expand the memory allocated for games is different than having a custom filesystem.
     
  5. Silent_Buddha

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    A standard PCIE SSD, even one using PCIE 4 isn't going to be 40x faster than the HDDs in the current XBO. Especially when it comes to real world numbers and not just technical specifications.

    While it's possible for sequential (non-fragmented) reads or sequential (non-fragmented) writes using a PCIE 4.0 SSD to exceed 40x the read or write speed of the 2.5" HDDs you find in current gen consoles, you won't get even close to that when it comes to actual transfer speeds in games which are far more governed by random reads and writes. Not to mention all the other things that effect performance outside of sequential non-fragmented reads of large files (the smaller the files the lower your read speed).

    As for showing footage using a PC, what does that have to do with the console storage subsystem? Almost nothing.

    Regards,
    SB
     
  6. Globalisateur

    Globalisateur Globby
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    @Silent_Buddha
    I responded to that claim of yours. You think PC will never have PCIE 4 ?
     
  7. BRiT

    BRiT (╯°□°)╯
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    Micrososft already uses customized packaging and installation images on the PC for games. You dont think they would extend to newer and additional customizations to console? Or that Microsoft would use a newer customized file system for their console, like GameFS 2019 or whatever they could create?

    It's not beyond MS's capabilities to have a filesystem for console ssds, after having already created the following filesystems we know about: FAT, FAT16, FAT16x, FAT32, FAT32x, FATx, exFAT, HPFS, NTFS, and lastly ReFS in 2012.
     
  8. Globalisateur

    Globalisateur Globby
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    Exactly @BRiT. They are probably going to use an API compatible with PC in order to ease PC -> console conversion.
     
  9. ultragpu

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    Um so since V is 5, that v shaped device has got to be PS5 devkit right? It's funny how they quite literally designed it V shaped :lol2:.
     
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  10. Shortbread

    Shortbread Island Hopper
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    I know nothings on patents filings or all the terminologies behind it, other than some vague layman understanding on how it possibly works. So when I referenced design, I meant everything inclusive of the device, including it's cooling solution. And from my layman's understanding, the physical design can be patented as well (see quotes). So, maybe Sony has filed a two part claim towards patents (one for the tech and one for case)? I would image certain PC case designers/manufacturers such as Cooler Master would have certain design patents on their cases. But as I stated earlier, I have just a vague understanding on patent filings.

    https://www.upcounsel.com/how-to-patent-a-design
    Edit: If I'm not mistaken, there are two patents (or patent filings) on the design of the PS4 case (dimensions, size, ventilation process, etc.). When I have a chance, I'll post it.
     
    #1070 Shortbread, Aug 22, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2019
  11. Shifty Geezer

    Shifty Geezer uber-Troll!
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    Seems that's a US term. Everywhere else, they're Registered Designs and patents are exclusively for inventions which will have a description of how they work and what is novel about them. If the design is registered in Japan, it'll be a Registered Industrial Design and not filed as a Patent. All invention patents are searchable at the patent office and must be public. Registered Designs vary more by country, it seems.

    Checked the link.
    https://nl.letsgodigital.org/uploads/2019/08/sony-interactive-entertainment.pdf

    It's a Registered Design ('Design Patent' for weird foreigners :p), apparently registered in Brazil. Therefore, no scientific description of why it is the way it is. I can't find the Japanese original, but it seems designs are allowed to be hidden from publication for three years at the Japanese Patent Office.
     
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  12. AlBran

    AlBran Ferro-Fibrous
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    Ninja Paten
     
  13. Zaphod

    Zaphod Remember
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    The confusion comes from the USA calling registered industrial designs "design patents".

    This is originally a Japanese registered design. However, the design itself is withheld ("Sealing period of principal design: 12 Month").

    The weird thing is why someone working at a company protecting IP for Sony figured that this design needed particular protection in Brazil, thereby disclosing it. I'm guessing clerical error.

    Edit: I see most of this has already been pointed out above. My apologies. I'll leave it for the link to the original Japanese registration.
     
    #1073 Zaphod, Aug 22, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2019
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  14. DSoup

    DSoup meh
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    Design patents. I don't know why you would want to in this case.

    [​IMG]
     
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  15. Shifty Geezer

    Shifty Geezer uber-Troll!
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    Because clearly MS, Nintendo and Apple will be eager to copy the design. Probably.
     
  16. Shortbread

    Shortbread Island Hopper
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    It seems the developer pulled his tweet on this acknowledgment. Someone had a talking to...
     
  17. Karamazov

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    PSV, ready for the climate change, will cool down even by 50°C
     
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  18. Silent_Buddha

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    PC will have PCIE 4. But PCIE won't get to the speeds that MS are claiming for Project Scarlett. That likely involves ignoring certain safeguards and conventions that exist on PC to guarantee system stability and integrity in addition to data integrity regardless of what is run on the PC. However, you could do that on a console as the data access patterns are likely to be far more limited than what a PC OS is expected to handle.

    One example, you can make the storage system exclusive to the game being loaded on console, but you cannot do that on a PC.

    Hence, we'll be lucky if PCIE 4.0 SSDs on PC give us even a 0.5x increase over PCIE 3.0 SSDs. Just like PCIE 3.0 NVME SSDs hitting say 1.5 GB/s transfer speeds don't give you much of an increase in loading times over an SATA SSD that can't go faster than about 500 MB/s. In such a case, you aren't going to see a 300% increase in how quickly a game loads. You'll be lucky to see even a 25% increase in the speed of loads.

    It's also possible and quite likely that whatever storage subsystem is used on the console may also use non-standard hardware.

    Regards,
    SB
     
    #1078 Silent_Buddha, Aug 22, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2019
  19. iroboto

    iroboto Daft Funk
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    I don’t see why anything on console can’t be done on PC. It may just cost more, but certainly doable.
     
  20. MrFox

    MrFox Deludedly Fantastic
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    Unless there's an API for it and supported by most gpu, or chipset, or storage drivers, a low level technique will not be used on PC.

    On PC you're stuck with a rather low performance file system with a lot of feature creep, you won't access the raw drive, or use a high performance file system, or bypass the flash controller. A game dev can't ask you to format a section of your drive exclusively for a game.

    Hardwired codecs that could decode LZ or JPG at many GB/s without taxing the CPU are not on PC. Even if it becomes available, games on PC cannot require you to buy the latest hardware.

    Looking at loading times on PC from those with 3GB/s nvme drives, it's obvious there's something missing which have nothing to do with the storage hardware capabilities.
     
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