Baseless Next Generation Rumors with no Technical Merits [post E3 2019]

Discussion in 'Console Industry' started by BRiT, Jun 9, 2019.

Tags:
  1. ultragpu

    Legend Veteran

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2004
    Messages:
    5,364
    Likes Received:
    1,590
    Location:
    Australia
    I think this graph sums up the potential performance prospect of PS5 pretty well. A mid to slightly high-ish range heavily customized card as usual per console business, that out performs a 12.7tf Vega 64 which explains the need for a 12.9tf devkit (possibly OCed Vega 64) to simulate the final performance of a Navi based 7.5-8tf console. 8 TF PS5 is true after folks and we are going to like it aren't we?
    [​IMG]
     
    milk, goonergaz and Tkumpathenurpahl like this.
  2. AbsoluteBeginner

    Newcomer

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2019
    Messages:
    111
    Likes Received:
    50
    Yes we are!

    According to DF, 5700 outperforms Vega64 at 1440p anywhere from 5-20% at 161W. Which is great result if you ask me. It also outperforms 2060 and pretty much matches 2060S.

    Difference between 5700 and XT is relatively small I think duo to only difference being TF, not bandwidth and memory.
     
    ultragpu likes this.
  3. Tkumpathenurpahl

    Veteran Newcomer

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2016
    Messages:
    1,013
    Likes Received:
    743
    Yup, Vega 64 performance is what I was hoping we'd get, although I was prepared for something in the realm of Vega 56.

    Unless Sony/MS really shit the bed again, we should be in for a great generation.
     
    ultragpu likes this.
  4. Shortbread

    Shortbread Island Hopper
    Veteran

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2013
    Messages:
    3,665
    Likes Received:
    1,784
    PS Warrior: Navi paid owned by Sony. XB2 uses Radeon VII - old tech!
    XB Warrior: No. It's Navi. Possibly Navi+

    Benchmarks released.....

    PS Warrior: It's about the games…. :/
    XB Warrior: Maybe XB2 does use Radeon VII tech.... :/
     
  5. London-boy

    London-boy Shifty's daddy
    Legend Subscriber

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2002
    Messages:
    21,496
    Likes Received:
    5,121
    Imagine what that graph would look like with current base PS4, and Pro, to compare Navi+Zen2 with.... that’s the real eye opener here!
    Maybe not exactly that graph as it’s native 4K, but you get my point!
     
    #785 London-boy, Jul 7, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2019
    ultragpu likes this.
  6. iroboto

    iroboto Daft Funk
    Legend Regular Subscriber

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2014
    Messages:
    7,715
    Likes Received:
    6,006
    Please don’t do it this way. It’s much too confusing.
    FLOP is a FLOP. You can get more saturation or less bottlenecks but it can’t process more than it’s possible floating point operations per second.

    Using multipliers is perhaps the most confusing way to do this as there are tons of reasons or benchmarks that will limit cards. Imagine a specific benchmark where if you didn’t have L1 or L2 cache setup a certain way you have immediate 50% loss in performance because the benchmark specifically relies on that and your hardware is using 2-3X more cycles just to get the data into compute.

    A 14 wheeler truck has 700HP+ but will lose against a 20HP go kart in benchmarks that favour the go kart. Cards are designed a certain way; software another; benchmarks yet again another way. Something as simple as a benchmark favours nvidia architecture in thy way they do one thing differently. And then with Navi they Make the change to that one thing and all of a sudden performance!
     
    #786 iroboto, Jul 7, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2019
    Shortbread, AzBat and BRiT like this.
  7. 3dilettante

    Legend Alpha

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2003
    Messages:
    8,118
    Likes Received:
    2,860
    Location:
    Well within 3d
    It's what Sony claimed would be used in the patent. The main point of that claim that the translation table (and perhaps some data in-flight) is on-die, obviating the need for a large external memory pool and the lower bandwidth of its interface. Even if SRAM proves more sensitive, if it's on-die I don't know what other equivalent options would be available at this point besides SRAM.

    I would suspect it's difficult to have anything besides an SRAM buffer, if it's on-die. eDRAM doesn't have a source at a modern node, and other options often have specific nodes or have limitations in terms of endurance, capacity, or performance.
    The specifics of the storage cells may be interchangeable, but the overall scheme is very concerned with removing the need for external memory chips for the flash controller. It goes to significant effort to contort the flash addressing scheme and translation table handling to shrink the table enough to fit on the die of a flash controller chip.
    In the context of the rumor about a devkit with DRAM chips for the SSD and a standard flash controller that uses DDR for its translation tables, it's not evidence for the one element patent that can be visible externally.

    Random thread perusal, and this patent had come up in other threads before. It's interesting to me in the context of the rumor about a devkit in that it's not often that an architectural element like block addressing and file system can have (or not have) externally visible consequences on a PCB.
     
    Shortbread likes this.
  8. ultragpu

    Legend Veteran

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2004
    Messages:
    5,364
    Likes Received:
    1,590
    Location:
    Australia
    This is true and all especially with Nvidia tossed into the equation, I still think it's somewhat reasonable to apply it just for Vega vs Navi comparison seeing how the latter is consistently equaling and out performing the former despite a Tflops deficit. Yes, we're only looking at current gen games here, who knows how the next gen game design could shift the % a bit, but I get a feeling they'll be designed with Navi in mind anyway knowing the consoles will be using those and they dictate the vast majority of the industry anyhow.
     
  9. Karmaprof

    Newcomer

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2019
    Messages:
    22
    Likes Received:
    8
    8 Tflops is a pretty low Number to Start in the end of 2020 , so definitive not a full Step. In this Point I 'm wondering about Sonys new Statement that they targeting the Core Market and that the Ps5 is a "niche Product". Because 8 Tflops( dosent matter if its more effiecient than Vega) is in 2020 already a Mainstream GPU powerwise , you cannot called such Console as a niche Product , or the SSD is the more expensive Part. "Niche" from my Understanding would be a very expensive Console in a price Range of 600-800 Euro.
     
  10. AlphaWolf

    AlphaWolf Specious Misanthrope
    Legend

    Joined:
    May 28, 2003
    Messages:
    8,395
    Likes Received:
    247
    Location:
    Treading Water
    The term 'niche' need not be reflective of a price point.
     
    milk likes this.
  11. ultragpu

    Legend Veteran

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2004
    Messages:
    5,364
    Likes Received:
    1,590
    Location:
    Australia
    I also think the word Niche is only in relative term, compared to previous gen consoles it indeed is, but not so much compared to gpus from 2020. Unless Sony surprise the shit out of us by introducing a $599 console again with 10TF+ Navi, 16GB HBM all cooled by a monster vapor chamber, the chance of that happening is less than 5% the way I see it.
     
  12. DSoup

    DSoup meh
    Legend Veteran Subscriber

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2007
    Messages:
    10,846
    Likes Received:
    5,646
    Location:
    London, UK
    Over 500 years ago when the first concept of patents were established, yes. Not any longer.

    None of it is binding, patent legislation is a technical branch of contract law overseen by civil courts in most countries. While the State may provide the framework and process for assessments (applications) and record keeping (patents being issued) it does not enforce that. That's down to individuals in court, hence the specialism of patent lawyers.

    Good luck to you if you want to everything yourself but if the purpose of obtaining a patent is protection, with no experience of practising in patent law, nor knowledge of key patent decisions in the courts, I wouldn't rate your chances of writing a good patent application.

    I must have missed the reference to SRAM in the patent, I only saw conjecture of the possible of use of DRAM in system memory, where the patent itself questioned what impact this arrangement would have on efficiency.
     
    BRiT likes this.
  13. 3dilettante

    Legend Alpha

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2003
    Messages:
    8,118
    Likes Received:
    2,860
    Location:
    Well within 3d
    Referring to the link given earlier:
    http://www.freepatentsonline.com/y2017/0097897.html

    And then later:

     
    DSoup likes this.
  14. AbsoluteBeginner

    Newcomer

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2019
    Messages:
    111
    Likes Received:
    50
    Hmm honestly this all sounds very familiar.



    APU with 8 core Zen/ 8MB of L3 (half the Zen2), Navi 10 Lite and 16GB of GDDR6 RAM on 256bit bus.

    Kinda hard to imagine this being anything other then console APU, as that amount of GDDR6 would be auto no-no for PC/laptop APU.
     
  15. Shortbread

    Shortbread Island Hopper
    Veteran

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2013
    Messages:
    3,665
    Likes Received:
    1,784
    I wouldn't be surprised if this is an AMD spec'd Gaming/Workstation laptop competing against Nvidia's spec'd (Turing mobile architecture) laptops that contain either the RTX 4000 or RTX 5000 GPUs that have 16GB of GDDR6 on a 256-bit bus. I know Asus is refreshing their AMD ROG line soon with the new Navi / Ryzen architectures, as well as their competitors.

    Anyhow, those boost-clocks for console gaming is a no-go on so many levels, especially when framerate prediction (stability) and input latency would be drastically affected by that gulf between the normal clocks and boost-clocks. Console gaming aims for a more uniformed approach (hardware/software/performance) towards the user's experience within that console userbase and ecosystem.
     
    #795 Shortbread, Jul 22, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2019
    Silent_Buddha, BRiT and Globalisateur like this.
  16. AbsoluteBeginner

    Newcomer

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2019
    Messages:
    111
    Likes Received:
    50
    Turing 5000 in those laptop is 16GB for GPU, its not system memory.
     
  17. Shortbread

    Shortbread Island Hopper
    Veteran

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2013
    Messages:
    3,665
    Likes Received:
    1,784
    I know that. I'm just stating the possibilities that this APU configuration could house such a configuration towards the GPU component, not the general / OS memory configuration. There could be a possibility of 8-16GB of DDR4 for such needs. A split memory configuration which PCs and laptops are already accustomed to. The APU package (for this particular laptop) could just be a way on cutting down on thermals, footprint size and BoM cost.
     
    #797 Shortbread, Jul 22, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2019
  18. fehu

    Veteran Regular

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2006
    Messages:
    1,437
    Likes Received:
    373
    Location:
    Somewhere over the ocean
    Beyond3D is the best place where to learn things that are disproved by reality.
     
  19. Globalisateur

    Globalisateur Globby
    Veteran Regular

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2013
    Messages:
    2,860
    Likes Received:
    1,605
    Location:
    France
    I thought Zen 2 had 32 MB of L3 cache.
     
    chris1515 likes this.
  20. AlBran

    AlBran Ferro-Fibrous
    Moderator Legend

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2004
    Messages:
    20,602
    Likes Received:
    5,710
    Location:
    ಠ_ಠ
    Maybe it's Zhongshan SuborU 2
     
Loading...

Share This Page

  • About Us

    Beyond3D has been around for over a decade and prides itself on being the best place on the web for in-depth, technically-driven discussion and analysis of 3D graphics hardware. If you love pixels and transistors, you've come to the right place!

    Beyond3D is proudly published by GPU Tools Ltd.
Loading...