Baseless Next Generation Rumors with no Technical Merits [post E3 2019, pre GDC 2020] [XBSX, PS5]

[iroboto]

They are either both AMD or neither is AMD. Is pretty much the way I see the highest probabilities laying out.

The first one to announce their ray tracing solution should clue us in on the other

 

[Globalisateur]

‘Custom RT Solution’ sounds a lot like ‘Custom Cell Processor That Was A Mess Nobody Really Loved Until After Few Years Of Trying’.

Nah. I do firmly believe, as a couch tech lover myself, but mostly as a good business man, that both Sony and MS basically went to AMD, asked them what they could get in a specific time frame, with a specific budget, with whatever specific features they wanted, and AMD went: “Here you go, this is what we can make, you need a box this big and a cooling solution this good to make this run without burning millions of houses down. Thank you for the money. Good luck”

The notion that somehow Sony (or MS) would take the AMD APU and glue whatever ‘custom RT hardware’ they supposedly have on it - and there is zero evidence that they would even know what on earth that would look like - is bonkers.

This thread should be renamed the Bonkers & Baseless Next Gen Hardware Thread.

But that's exactly what Sony have done with their custom ID Buffer in order to implement their own method of CBR or improved TAA. They came with their own hardware solution to resolve a problem tailored for their specific needs: how to display relatively sharp 4K with only 2X 1080p pixels.

And I actually expect that Sony will use some RDNA2 features ported on their custom RDNA GPU (the same way they used Vega features on their GCN GPU). But I won't be surprised if their solution is totally custom because they have already done it in the past.

 

[Deleted member 13524]

The PS5 using a separate chip for RT would be much nicer as long as said RT chip was able to offload the majority of raytracing implementation overheads towards it.
However, in games where RT isn't needed the SeX would have a sizeable performance advantage. Plus, we'd also need to know if this same RT chip would process ray traced audio, or if the GPU still needs to distribute those 9.2TF for audio.

Raytracing is GPU accelerated on the PS5 as per Cerny so this is garbage.

He said it was GPU accelerated or hardware accelerated?

I don't see any reason you'd want a separate chip to do RT, especially when the entire APU is already a SOC.

Besides avoiding lower yields from having a larger 400mm^2 chip?
Even more if you consider the PS5 was initially thought to launch this year, using 2019's 7nm yields.

How are you going to do any low latency communication with the APU? What memory do you even talk to?

If only AMD had released several solutions that use high-bandwidth / low-latency communication between chiplets and I/O chips using Infinity Fabric over a substrate, during the past couple of years...?

Good observation. You'd think if both were using AMD's raytracing, she'd say, "Both consoles are using our raytracing."

Agreed. The way she phrased it sounds a bit like "they just let us know they're using their own thing".

 

[mpg1]

The PS5 using a separate chip for RT would be much nicer as long as said RT chip was able to offload the majority of raytracing implementation overheads towards it.

I mean all "dedicated hardware" is going to offload it..that's the point of dedicated hardware is it not?....

 

[disco_]

The PS5 using a separate chip for RT would be much nicer as long as said RT chip was able to offload the majority of raytracing implementation overheads towards it.
However, in games where RT isn't needed the SeX would have a sizeable performance advantage. Plus, we'd also need to know if this same RT chip would process ray traced audio, or if the GPU still needs to distribute those 9.2TF for audio.

He said it was GPU accelerated or hardware accelerated?

He said

“There is ray-tracing acceleration in the GPU hardware,” he says, “which I believe is the statement that people were looking for.”

 

[Esrever]

The PS5 using a separate chip for RT would be much nicer as long as said RT chip was able to offload the majority of raytracing implementation overheads towards it.
However, in games where RT isn't needed the SeX would have a sizeable performance advantage. Plus, we'd also need to know if this same RT chip would process ray traced audio, or if the GPU still needs to distribute those 9.2TF for audio.

Besides avoiding lower yields from having a larger 400mm^2 chip?
Even more if you consider the PS5 was initially thought to launch this year, using 2019's 7nm yields.


If only AMD had released several solutions that use high-bandwidth / low-latency communication between chiplets and I/O chips using Infinity Fabric over a substrate, during the past couple of years...?

There hasn't been any substantial sources of PS5 supposedly wanting to launch last year, it doesn't fit with any timeline. If this was originally a plan, then Sony screwed themselves up so much for not wanting to wait a year for generalized RT tech from AMD and still getting delayed.

I mean if you want to use infinity fabric to connect a die to the system you can but even then it's a huge latency penalty. At that point, you'd probably move CPU off die too to balance it out. Why even make a ~300mm^2 die for the APU? Although technically possible, there is so much overhead here. Not only that but RT is likely much more coupled with the GPU than what AMD has done on the CPU side. Moving RT hardware off the GPU would be akin to moving rasterization off the GPU, I don't see that happening.

 

[MrFox]

AMD is only allowed to say what sony and ms already publicized. None of them said whether their RT solution is from AMD or from their own development. So AMD phrased it accordingly.

Any chance it could be an external IP not from AMD nor Sony nor MS?

In that case, both Sony and MS could add it into their SoC, but AMD would still develop their own for their GPU line. Whatever goes in a PC GPU will need to conform to however DirectX will standardize RT on windows, but Sony is free to use something different from other IP vendors.

 

[DavidGraham]

I fully expect the PS5 to use a different solution than Xbox, here is an insight from one of the known console developers:

Nah... The PS5 has a very different RT solution compared to what is implemented in DXR. Even the Xbox has an upgraded pipeline. So, hibrid RT will be the way to go in the future,

https://forums.anandtech.com/threads/ray-tracing-is-in-all-next-gen-consoles.2571546/#post-39954331

AMD is only allowed to say what sony and ms already publicized. None of them said whether their RT solution is from AMD or from their own development. So AMD phrased it accordingly.

No, AMD publicly stated that the Xbox is using their RDNA Ray Tracing solution, they never did the same for PlayStation.

This processor builds upon the significant innovation of the AMD Ryzen™ "Zen 2" CPU core and a "Navi" GPU based on next-generation Radeon™ RDNA gaming architecture including hardware-accelerated raytracing.

https://community.amd.com/community/gaming/blog/2019/06/09/amd-powers-microsoft-project-scarlett

 

[mpg1]

Cerney states "RT acceleration is in the GPU hardware". How many off the self solutions are out there that could be easily incorporated in the AMD's GPU that would be more viable than just taking AMD's baked in solution?

I feel like if there are difference it would be on the API side....not the hardware.

 

[Shortbread]

Cerney states "RT acceleration is in the GPU hardware".

PowerVR RT solution allows for such integration (into other GPU products).

 

[Shortbread]

I fully expect the PS5 to use a different solution than Xbox, here is an insight from one of the known console developers:


https://forums.anandtech.com/threads/ray-tracing-is-in-all-next-gen-consoles.2571546/#post-39954331


No, AMD publicly stated that the Xbox is using their RDNA Ray Tracing solution, they never did the same for PlayStation.



https://community.amd.com/community/gaming/blog/2019/06/09/amd-powers-microsoft-project-scarlett

If I'm not mistaken, the Gizmodo editor after the SDK leak alluded to Sony's RT solution being quite different on ERA. That the PS5 RT solution could be more robust.

Edit: Info from 10/1/2019

Per, alexhcranz over at Era (verified editor at Gizmodo).

"Unfortunately, it's too vague. For example, I read the tipster's comment as suggesting the Sony device would do lots of real-time ray tracing from occlusion to shadows to full bounce reflections and the Microsoft device would rely on tricks to emulate ray tracing. But another colleague read the exact same comment and interpreted it as how ray tracing might appear in titles re-released for the new system. Game devs I passed it along too all had opinions that ranged the gamut from mine to my colleagues'. So until we get a little more detail I'm afraid it's all hearsay."

 

[DavidGraham]

I feel like if there are difference it would be on the API side....not the hardware.

It's highly possible that Sony's custom solution was developed early on, before AMD was even aware that DXR is coming, Sony requested an integration with AMD APUs, and AMD assisted with that. Microsoft however requested a DXR compatible solution from AMD, as the Xbox will use DX12 and DXR.

The timeline could go like this:

-Some time in 2015 (possibly), Sony and NVIDIA are developing their own RT solutions
-Microsoft gets wind of that, decides Xbox needs RT, and gathers HIVs to settle on a standard for RT on the PC/Xbox
-Microsoft develops DXR with the help of NVIDIA, AMD and Intel (in that order)
-AMD starts developing their own RT solution for their PC GPUs and the Xbox
-NVIDIA releases their own CUDA RT solution compatible with DXR, and even makes their own Vulkan RT solution at the same time
-2 Years later, AMD successfully releases their RT solution simultaneously on PC and Xbox
-Sony's RT solution is not compatible with DXR, and is custom made

 

[JoeJ]

Ok, this could mean 9TF PS5 == 12TF XSX, just to remember.
I wonder. Did Sony start to consider RT console before RTX came up quite surprisingly?

Edit: beaten...

 

[szymku]

It's highly possible that Sony's custom solution was developed early on, before AMD was even aware that DXR is coming, Sony requested an integration with AMD APUs, and AMD assisted with that. Microsoft however requested a DXR compatible solution from AMD, as the Xbox will use DX12 and DXR.

The timeline could go like this:

-Some time in 2015 (possibly), Sony and NVIDIA are developing their own RT solutions
-Microsoft gets wind of that, decides Xbox needs RT, and gathers HIVs to settle on a standard for RT on the PC/Xbox
-Microsoft develops DXR with the help of NVIDIA, AMD and Intel (in that order)
-AMD starts developing their own RT solution for their PC GPUs and the Xbox
-NVIDIA releases their own RT solution compatible with DXR, and even makes their own Vulkan RT solution at the same time
-2 Years later, AMD successfully releases their RT solution simultaneously on PC and Xbox
-Sony's RT solution is not compatible with DXR, and is custom made

This my be the case. People are forgeting that Sony is mainly hardware company and rather capable one. (PS2 anyone?). Their R&D departament could be assigned to various tasks, including RT solution

 

[MrFox]

They better add up all the ALUs of that section of the chip when they're ready to unveil a TF count.

 

[DavidGraham]

"Unfortunately, it's too vague. For example, I read the tipster's comment as suggesting the Sony device would do lots of real-time ray tracing from occlusion to shadows to full bounce reflections and the Microsoft device would rely on tricks to emulate ray tracing. But another colleague read the exact same comment and interpreted it as how ray tracing might appear in titles re-released for the new system"

Coincidentally, this -to some degree- agrees with the officially released AMD RT vision, they only list this phrase under their next gen RDNA hardware RT solution: "Select lighting effects for real time gaming", take note of the word "select", it's a curious choice of phrasing to be frank, especially when you read the category of Cloud, where the phrase full scene RT is mentioned, which implies a distinct difference RT wise between the two categories.

 

[Globalisateur]

I fully expect the PS5 to use a different solution than Xbox, here is an insight from one of the known console developers:


https://forums.anandtech.com/threads/ray-tracing-is-in-all-next-gen-consoles.2571546/#post-39954331


No, AMD publicly stated that the Xbox is using their RDNA Ray Tracing solution, they never did the same for PlayStation.



https://community.amd.com/community/gaming/blog/2019/06/09/amd-powers-microsoft-project-scarlett

That's a great catch. AMD actually confirming they are designing MS RT solution. Again, it really makes sense with their PC - Xbox ecosystem to use 100% stuff from desktop AMD GPUs.

 

[MrFox]

I wonder. Did Sony start to consider RT console before RTX came up quite surprisingly?

In 2013, Mark Cerny was talking about the decision not to use RT hardware on PS4 because it would have forced devs to use that fancy hardware to get any good performance. They learned from the Cell. They were focussing on easy development on ps4: no fancy graphics hardware, unified memory, good tools. It was a counter reaction to the ps3 criticism by devs.

If he was considering RT hardware for PS4 it means they've been looking at this for a long time.

 

[Shortbread]

They better add up all the ALUs of that section of the chip when they're ready to unveil a TF count.

Oh, they will...

In 2013, Mark Cerny was talking about the decision not to use RT hardware on PS4 because it would have forced devs to use that fancy hardware to get any good performance. They learned from the Cell. They were focussing on easy development on ps4: no fancy graphics hardware, unified memory, good tools. It was a counter reaction to the ps3 criticism by devs.

If he was considering RT hardware for PS4 it means they've been looking at this for a long time.

Sony has been dabbling with RT since the PS2 days. With funky devices such as GSCube and networked PS3/CELL systems.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

The notion that somehow Sony (or MS) would take the AMD APU and glue whatever ‘custom RT hardware’ they supposedly have on it - and there is zero evidence that they would even know what on earth that would look like - is bonkers.

I disagree that its bonkers. I don't consider it highly plausible, but we've a number of pointers including Sony working on realtime RT solutions and employing RT talent. The patent is for a photon-mapping processor filed 2014, before RTX and DXR...

The present disclosure relates to an image processing device that renders an image, an image processing method used in the device, a computer program for implementing the method and a computer-readable recording medium recording the program.

A home entertainment system that not only executes a game program but also can reproduce a moving image has been proposed. In this home entertainment system, a Graphics Processing Unit (GPU) generates three-dimensional images using polygons (refer to e.g. U.S. Pat. No. 6,563,999). etc.​

If it's something Sony were pursuing before 2014, they started independently. We also have no idea what AMD's solution is, so rather than wait for something AMD might have available for PS5, perhaps Sony went with their own known research?