Bah, LCDs. What a mess.

[Goragoth]

I'm typing this on my brand new HP1955 LCD screen. From the title you may have guessed that I'm none to happy. It is excelent for text/graphics work, the colours are superb and there's no trailing when scrolling black text on a white background (something I've noticed many LCDs have problems with). So far so good. Now the bad part: some games are practically unplayable due to ghosting (most importantly EQ2!) and the effect is also quite glaring when watching some movies (terrible in music videos since there's a lot of quick movement, tolerable in most regular movie situations though). Now suposedly this is the best (fastest) panel built on VA tech so far. Word is that TN panels are terrible (in terms of colour reproduction). I seriously considering returning the monitor and replacing it with another (well I can try anyway, not sure if they will do it) but I wouldn't know what else to get. The only monitors with S-IPS technology (according to what was said in my previous thread the best panel tech) seem to be produced by LG.
The models are 1910S and 1930S. Neither seems to have DVI and user reviews on Prad.de indicate that they also suffer from ghosting problems.

So the question is simple: is there a LCD monitor out there that is suitable for a wide range applications including games, watching dvds and doing graphics work or should I just set up my old 19" CRT as well and use that for gaming/dvds and use the LCD for work/web browsing etc...? It would be possible but would cost me significant desk space.

Sorry to bring this all up again, especially when I don't even know if I can do anything about it but this monitor is a very significant investment for me and I want to get it right.

 

[pcchen]

I'd sacrifice the desktop space for a CRT monitor. Actually that what I am doing now. I bought a fast LCD (16 ms response time) but it has too few colors, that makes image/video compression noises very visible. Playing games is mostly ok, though.

 

[Gubbi]

So the question is simple: is there a LCD monitor out there that is suitable for a wide range applications including games, watching dvds and doing graphics work or should I just set up my old 19" CRT as well and use that for gaming/dvds and use the LCD for work/web browsing etc...?

My $0.02. I just bought a Viewsonic vx912 for my kid brother. It has basically zero ghosting. I've heard rumours that it should be a 6bit panel, but I can't see it (colour saturation is good). All in all a bloody good monitor.

However if you're going to do real graphics work, you have to do it on a CRT, they just have better reproduction (contrast in particular can be a problem on LCDs).

Cheers
Gubbi

 

[mczak]

MVA/PVA panels just can't compete with TN+film panels on response time (at least for now, S-IPS can't neither). They might be excellent otherwise, but they still suck on that. Just the other day, tomshardware did some comparison. The PVA panel with a quoted response time of 25ms had latencies from 25ms up to 120ms, http://graphics.tomshardware.com/display/20050110/lcd-04.html , the TN+film panels had ~16ms up to ~35ms, http://graphics.tomshardware.com/display/20050110/lcd-16.html#lgphilips_190x5s_responsiveness. Sure, other MVA/PVA panels might be faster, but the latency response curve ought to look similar.
Of course, color reproduction, uniformity, viewing angle are all much better on the PVA panel. But OTOH I don't think these are as irritating as ghosting (for gaming).

 

[fallguy]

There is zero chance I will ever go back to the traditional CRT display.

 

[ANova]

I bought a Viewsonic VP171s about a week ago and aside from a dead driver which resulted in a green vertical line (I got it replaced of course) I've been more then pleased.

It uses a TN+film panel with a 500:1 contrast ratio, 8ms response time, 300 cd/m2, and 160/160 viewing angle. It is an 8 bit panel but for some reason colors now seem more vibrant then they did on my old CRT. Blacks are actually black (for an LCD) unlike the Sony hs74p I had before this. I also notice very little to no ghosting. My only peave is some minor backlight bleeding, but nothing serious. All in all I would highly recommend it; although I don't do any serious graphics work so that may be up in the air.

From what I've seen Dell's 2001FP and 2005FPW are also very good monitors with good all around specs. Maybe you want to take a look at them?

 

[swaaye]

I spend 50% of my time on a modern notebook. My CRT is a breath of fresh air as far as I'm concerned. The LCD response time is just painfully apparent (not even gaming) between my 19" CRT and this 15.4" LCD. The color comparison isn't even worth comparing, the CRT is hands down superior in every way. Contrast is strikingly better on the CRT as well. Even my bro's Samsung 17" CRT from a couple years ago is garbage for games IMO, unless you like washed out colors and blur cuz of the response time. Play Doom3 on a CRT and LCD side by side sometime.

Granted if your CRT sucks, you won't be as likely to complain. Most people have shitty CRTs so they don't have a good comparison. My Samsung Syncmaster 950P 19" CRT is just suprisingly good.

I've seen lots of LCDs and IMO they are not good for anything other than space saving and maybe word processing / web browsing. I used to think they reduce eye strain, but I don't even know about that anymore. I think my eyes get more annoyed at staring at this LCD for hours than they ever have with a good, crisp CRT.

Oh, and then there's the ridiculous price differential. The limited viewing angle. The 1 resolution limitation.

And the BS with companies accepting bad pixels in their screens. My bro is stuck with a factory refurb Samsung 17" LCD that came with a single bright green pixel stuck, after his original screen died and was replaced under warranty. I myself returned two notebooks that came with dead pixels. Even the one I kept has one, but it's hard to notice cuz it's a darkish grey.

LCDs are questionable technology, unless you like all these quirks.

 

[Mize]

3x various LCDs at work (no gaming ever) but my trusty Viewsonic p95f at home for gaming, etc. 1600x1200 @ 85 Hz with REAL dynamic range (LCD=blech) is key. I can't imagine how much worse pR0n must look on those color-bands-everywhere LCDs!

 

[ANova]

I can't imagine how much worse pR0n must look on those color-bands-everywhere LCDs!

Not bad from where I'm sitting. 8)

 

[Mize]

LOL!

 

[swaaye]

LCDs are getting better but they are a LONG way away from CRTs, especially in certain apps where the color range and contrast really matter due to extremes.

 

[Goragoth]

I've got no problems with colour banding and the colours are excelent (although I had to tweak the gamma down to 0.8 get colours to look normal) but in quickly moving images it goes bad. With certain colour combinations when they move they turn into very ugly looking bright spots sometimes looking almost like the colours are inverted at that spot. UT2k3 for example is mostly fine but Doom3 and EQ2 both look horrible.

 

[Goragoth]

After doing more extensive reading it sounds like S-IPS is the only way to go for me BUT there are only those two LG panels available and info on them is far and few between. The 1930S sounds good with 12ms response (though prad.de has it listed as 25ms???). No DVI but I think I can live without it if I have to (the 1930P which does have DVI is not in stock and anyway it is more expensive).

 

[Mendel]

Not to spoil your party but...

NEVER, NEVER buy an lcd display without DVI. It's a night and day difference!

 

[Goragoth]

NEVER, NEVER buy an lcd display without DVI. It's a night and day difference!

Fair enough BUT I can't find a single NZ vendor selling 19" S-IPS panels with DVI. TN is out question as they don't have enough colours for graphics work and VA based panels are useless for games.

Doesn't look like I have much choice.

 

[mczak]

NEVER, NEVER buy an lcd display without DVI. It's a night and day difference!

Fair enough BUT I can't find a single NZ vendor selling 19" S-IPS panels with DVI. TN is out question as they don't have enough colours for graphics work and VA based panels are useless for games.

Doesn't look like I have much choice.

What about something like Iyama E481S? Sure, not too many 19" S-IPS panels seem to exist (this one also has a LG panel).
I'm not so sure that response time is necessarily better with S-IPS than MVA. It really looks like the technology is just not quite there yet, it's still either "crappy, small, fast" or "beautiful, big, slow" (with some nuances of course)...

 

[Goragoth]

Haven't seen any Iiyama panels for sale here at all, neither any NEC or Fujitsu-Siemens ones (all of these manufacture 19" LCDs with DVI). Only LG and only without DVI.

I'm not so sure that response time is necessarily better with S-IPS than MVA.

While the numbers are about the same (25ms) I've heard that subjectively S-IPS panels are usable for gaming while VA based ones are not. All I know is that the HP L1955 is horrible when it comes to moving images. A little blurring I could handle but the bright colour banding that it gives me is terrible.

I really hope that they invent some decent display technology soon since all current ones seem to have severe drawbacks (LCDs suffer from bad response times and/or bad colour reproduction, CRTs are blurry and flicker horribly even at high refresh rates plus they take up lots of room). Maybe OLED displays will finally be a true breakthrough in display technology.

 

[epicstruggle]

Not sure if you can get dell lcd's but:
http://accessories.us.dell.com/sna/...p;cs=19&sku=320-1578&category_id=4009

their UltraSharp 2001FP 20.1-inch lcd is quite nice. Its a rebadged lcd, a bit of searching will find out who really makes it and if you can get it there. I play eq2 on it, and havent seen any ghosting or color banding. Have 3 of them and they are all freaking nice. And to repeat what someone else said above, make sure you have dvi on the lcd. I have one of the lcds on dvi and the other one in the standard vga plug. You can tell immediatly which one is on the dvi. VERY big difference. Right now im looking at picking up a dual-dvi graphics card so i can truely enjoy my dual monitors.

later

 

[Goragoth]

That Dell truly looks like a nice monitor and is S-IPS based plus DVI but I really didn't want to spend that much. Hmm, originaly I was looking at 17" monitors and now I'm up to 20"
It's certainly tempting.

So what difference exactly does DVI make? I have switched my current HP LCD between analog and DVI and I couldn't see any immediate difference but I only had analog on for a very short time and wasn't really looking for differences.

Perhaps I need to rethink my decision to go with the non-DVI monitor after all but that basically means being stuck with going 20" and spending another NZ$500 or so more, all money that is going to cut into my budget for my next computer

 

[ANova]

So what difference exactly does DVI make? I have switched my current HP LCD between analog and DVI and I couldn't see any immediate difference but I only had analog on for a very short time and wasn't really looking for differences.

The signal coming out of the video card is digital, using analog means the signal has to get converted to analog, which is fairly easy, then back to digital for an LCD (which is much more difficult). Using DVI-D means it's straight digital to digital which eliminates image variations and color anomalies as well as the latencies from conversion.

I would suggest you take a look at the Dell monitors I mentioned as well as the Viewsonic Pro series of which the VP201 uses the same exact panel as the 2001FP.