ATI's Initial Responce to NVIDIA's Editors Day IQ Issues

Discussion in 'Graphics and Semiconductor Industry' started by Dave Baumann, Oct 28, 2003.

  1. digitalwanderer

    digitalwanderer Dangerously Mirthful
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    What is so "far removed from sanity" about hypothesizing that Lars is part of NVDC? I can't think of any other reason 'cept maybe extreme ignorance for his recent article.

    What other point was there to it? And what do you think of the fact that the only IHV he checked his facts with was nVidia?
     
  2. Vince

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    If you wish to criticize him based on what he's said, his outward projection of information, which can be shown to be factually varient - then by all means do it. But, for him to have to put up with people like you two is unfortunate.

    NVDC, eh? Do they have shoes as cool as the ninja ones? Seriously, your in need of a change-of-life if you truely believe this NVDC conspiracy where an elite group of media figure heads is out to destoy everything and everyone that stands between nVidia and world domination. It's just not happening, which is the case with any such pseudo-conspiracy theory which is so large and prominent that it's unthinkable something hasn't been leaked or someone come forward. You do realize this distorted perception of reality is an expressible signature of several mental disorders.

    And I just question when I'll see the day that some fool won't bring nVidia's cheating up in a thread for the Nth time.
     
  3. digitalwanderer

    digitalwanderer Dangerously Mirthful
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    Uhm, what are you talking about? (I edited out the sarcastic ninja suit bits, I'm honestly confused about your view. :( )

    I am criticizing him based on what he's said and the factually varient nature of his presentation, and I'm further looking for motives behind that factually varient bit and the only reason I can think of is to assist nVidia in public relations.

    If I'm missing something please tell me. :)
     
  4. Vince

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    Fine, then distance yourself from illusionary constructs like this "NVDC" - which you have yet to prove, and quite frankly can't prove. Motive fishing, IMHO, is nothing more than glorified trolling as you are physically incapable of observing his thoughts and what his mental motives are, and without this knowledge your just projecting your [biased] view of the matter. Hey, but to each his own.

    Again, to go as far as Doomtrooper, or whatever his name is, and accuse him of being part of a mythical NVDC is utter insanty. Especially since he's taken the time and kind gesture to visit a competitors forum and discuss it there.

    Back in 2000, I emailed the Doc inquiring about nVidia cheating in Quake3A and his relationship with several nVidia executives. And while I can't obviously say what he said, looking back, I respect the man for doing what it takes. He had [has?] an insanely popular site, his candor impressed me and I don't believe he's as swayed in opinion as the anti-nVidia camp has historically made him out to be. Which, should be noted IMHO, as the man has been demonized to no end by 3dfx supporters, AMD, and now ATI supporters because he doesn't always tow this status quo opinion of the extreme nerd community where you need to be rebellious against the dominant player in a tech field. Believe me, the Doc's opinions aren't alien to me and I don't necessarily like him, but I respect him.
     
  5. K.I.L.E.R

    K.I.L.E.R Retarded moron
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    Yet, you can't disprove what he's saying.

    I can't prove or disprove that so I will shut up on the matter.

    The same could be said about your opinion.

    I know nothing about that so I can't comment on it.
    I will just say this:

    If you are going to make accusations (prove or to disprove something for example) of any sort, back them up with undeniable evidence.

    On the topic of "NVDC" I don't see Doomtrooper providing hard, undeniable evidence of what he's suggesting nor do I see any hard, undeniable evidence from Vince to disprove what DT is saying.

    Until someone can provide undeniable evidence to back up what they are suggesting then the matter is still up in air.
     
  6. Vince

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    I also can't "prove" that you exist either in a pure philisophical light. We can play this game all night and it's never fun.

    Yet, this is how it works: If you make a claim, it's your responcibility to provide support as the status quo is logically assumed to be correct.

    I can invoke Ockham's Razor, which has been done all too often around here lately, and I have all the proof I need from my standpoint. He is clearly choosing a non-optimal solution which has multiplied it's constructs unnecesarily by talking about this insane "NVDC" - Game Over.

    Yet, this was believed to be known as it's not my position to disprove his theory. Just as it's not mainstream sciences job to disprove every crackpot who comes up with a ToE, Cold Fusion, or Perpetual Motion machine. If you wish to upturn convention - then you need to back it up.
     
  7. K.I.L.E.R

    K.I.L.E.R Retarded moron
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    Mainstream science doesn't need to continually disprove every crackpot's theories because those theories break some proven laws of physics or the theory just doesn't hold any basis.

    These crackpot theories disprove themselves. Hence you don't need scientists disproving them.

    Yes we can, that's one reason I can't say that I exist or not.
    I don't know if I exist or not because I can't prove it either way.

    Assumptions are made when you can afford a large margin of error. Regardless of how logical something is, it's never good to assume anything.

    I do know that every competetive corporation/business goes into damage control when the need rises.
    I'm just not sure how nVIDIA does it.
     
  8. Oblivious

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    Vince,

    I think what most people here are upset about is the apperent disparity in the way Lars has handled his investigations of drivers from Ati and Nvidia. To put it bluntly, it appears he is more critical of Ati when Nvidia has demonstrated time and again they are willing to use questionable optimizations.

    I'll use Aquamark 3 as an example of this double standard.

    When Aquamark first came out, there was a lot of noise about the way the 51.75's rendered the image and Lars investigated the issue. If you check this page http://www.tomshardware.com/graphic/20030918/aquamark-08.html
    you'll notice he contacted Nvidia about the problem before publishing and compared the image quality to the 44.03 drivers. In the same article, he compared the image quality of the 3.4 and 3.7 Cats and didn't notice a difference.

    Now, he investigates the claims against Ati's image quality in Aquamark with the 3.8 Cat's and notices irregularities. However, according to Ati's press release on the first page of this thread, they were not contacted by Lars or anyone else about this. Also notice Ati claims the image quality has not changed from earlier drivers. Since Lars doesn't mention it, readers are left to assume he did not compare the different drivers this time around. It's also interesting to note he didn't notice any problems between the refrast and Catalyst image output in his first article.

    I think the differences in his approaches to investigating the two IHV's make it easy to judge Lars as being sympathetic to Nvidia. Combine this with the fact that his second investigation came about because of comments from Nvidia and Tom's recent editorial (sorry, can't remember the link to this) that paints him as biased towards Nvidia and you have a lot of information that makes them look like they're playing favorites.

    I do not know if there really is a bias at Tom's (although I certainly get the impression there is) or if it's just a matter of Lars and Tom not realizing that they (and all major hardware sites) are under a lot of scrutiny these days and inconsistent behavior automatically leads to mass flaming. That is simply (and unfortunately) the state of the enthusiast community. It would probably be wise for Tom's (and every other hardware site) to set up some consistent guidelines for handling these issues if they want to at least have the outward appearance of objectivity.
     
  9. StealthHawk

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    Hold on a second. NVIDIA cheated in Quake3 :?: What did they do?
     
  10. THe_KELRaTH

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    If' I'm correct you are refering to the effects of altering DefaultTexMipBias command rather than DetailTexMipBias command...
    Here's an image altering DefaultTexMipBias
    www.jlmay.f2s.com/Mipmap.jpg

    What Nvidia and Mark Rein were pointing out in the comparison images is the lack of detail textures in the ATI image which due to DetailTexMipBias being set at 0.80000 which is out of range of the ATI settings :-
    www.jlmay.f2s.com/DetailTexture.jpg

    As for the rest of the image comparison shown on Guru3D - well "ONE" image is out of focus. http://www.guru3d.com/article/article/91/2
     
  11. Xmas

    Xmas Porous
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    No, I'm referring to LOD bias on any texture, i.e. both settings. The game just happens to use one value for detail textures and one value for the base textures (and others maybe). Both are used the same way, just on different textures. However, since this issue only kicks in when using a positive LOD bias, and only DetailTexMipBias is positive by default, people tend to associate it with this setting.
     
  12. nelg

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    Vince, I think it is safe to say that Doomtrooper was joking with the “NVDCâ€￾ comment. Then again you are taking this far to seriously, making me wonder if there is in fact a “NVDCâ€￾ and if your are its leader. :wink:
     
  13. THe_KELRaTH

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    Xmas, thanks for taking the time to clear that up for me.
     
  14. SirPauly

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    Exactly!
     
  15. micron

    micron Diamond Viper 550
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    Things are disapearing again....
     
  16. K.I.L.E.R

    K.I.L.E.R Retarded moron
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    Either Vince removed his post because of how inflammatory it was or John removed it or Dave/Rev removed it.
     
  17. micron

    micron Diamond Viper 550
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    And Doomtroopers post wasnt inflammatory?....whatever the reasons were for the post's removal, they didnt pertain to me, so I shouldnt be asking for an explanation as to why they are no longer here.
     
  18. bloodbob

    bloodbob Trollipop
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    Yeah I know what you mean about stuff disappearing I prefer forums where you end up with a post saying removed by moderator so that when you read posts below it you know atleast who they are responding to but I don't think phpBB does that easily for mods.
     
  19. jimbob0i0

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    bb no it doesn't... in that sort of scenario I normally just edit the offending post removing the entire content and leaving a warning to the poster in its place.
     
  20. Doomtrooper

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    Exactly..not sure who you think you are :lol:
     
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