Apple is an existential threat to the PC

wco81

Legend
How big a portion of the user base do you think Gen Z represent in the US, even if all of them used iPhones and nothing else?
 

homerdog

donator of the year
Legend
Supporter
I’m not saying it is a monopoly. But seeing as how there are only kids who have iPhones and kids who wish they had iPhones, even a zoomer can see where this is going. Only poor people switch from iOS to Android, and Apple cares less about them than they do about RCS.
 
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^M^

Newcomer
We made computers that are easy to use. The flip side is that people don't need to learn how they work
 

troyan

Regular
The new RTX4090 mobile is up to 2,3x faster in blender than the 3080TI mobile:
Apple's new M2 Max is chip is only 40% or so faster than M1 Max.

So, i still dont know what normal buyers are doing with a Macbook Pro. Youtube reviewers are only showing video editing as this would be the only application for Apple's M-processors...
 

Pressure

Veteran
The new RTX4090 mobile is up to 2,3x faster in blender than the 3080TI mobile:
Apple's new M2 Max is chip is only 40% or so faster than M1 Max.

So, i still dont know what normal buyers are doing with a Macbook Pro. Youtube reviewers are only showing video editing as this would be the only application for Apple's M-processors...
The difference being that the Apple computer gives full performance whether it's plugged in or on battery. You would be lucky to get even 2 hours on those Windows monstrosities.
 

Bondrewd

Veteran
The difference being that the Apple computer gives full performance whether it's plugged in or on battery.
Battery life under heavy loads is every bit as shit as comparable 100W total Windows laptops.
You would be lucky to get even 2 hours on those Windows monstrosities.
2hrs is exactly how long this thing lives under heavy loads.
It's various low load scenarios where AAPL uncore efficiency (and morbidly efficient LITTLEs) shine.
 

Pressure

Veteran
If you all could just decide on what metric you deem most important and stick to that.

These M2 Pro and M2 Max SoCs are great either way.

The heaviest workload I have done on my M1 Max have it peaked at around 50 Watt.
 

Albuquerque

Red-headed step child
Veteran
If you all could just decide on what metric you deem most important and stick to that.
Seems like Bondrewd was simply replying to your claims, not making up new ones. Maybe if you'd like to stick to a most important metric, you could start leading by example?

No part of this is a statement of whether the M1 / M2 is good or not; the comparison to Windows is kinda silly for a multitude of reasons. It's like the inevitable dick-waving contests in the console forum deciding if PS5 is more powerful than the XBOX. It doesn't matter, use the one you enjoy and spend more time talking about how you enjoy it and less time about how it's always better than the thing you don't like to use.
 

Pressure

Veteran
Seems like Bondrewd was simply replying to your claims, not making up new ones. Maybe if you'd like to stick to a most important metric, you could start leading by example?

No part of this is a statement of whether the M1 / M2 is good or not; the comparison to Windows is kinda silly for a multitude of reasons. It's like the inevitable dick-waving contests in the console forum deciding if PS5 is more powerful than the XBOX. It doesn't matter, use the one you enjoy and spend more time talking about how you enjoy it and less time about how it's always better than the thing you don't like to use.
My point wasn't solely based on one person but a few.

I will leave this thread alone for the future as having any kind of discussion will instantly derail it into the usual tropes that got the entire Architecture and Products forum locked.
 
The M1 Macbook Pros are excellent software development machines. Having the single-threaded integer performance of a 5800x/5900x in a 5w per core envelope is really nice, especially when your build system can only extract coarse-grained parallelism. They're also dead silent, have great battery life, have impeccable fit and finish, and you have not one, but two open-source package managers (Homebrew and MacPorts) so if you're used to working in the *nix ecosystem pretty much everything is available.
 

Albuquerque

Red-headed step child
Veteran
Yeah, the M1 / M2 devices make really great software dev boxes for all the reasons you've called out. Sitting in an IDE for hours at a time, (with an occasional build run for unit testing) is a fantastic use case for the power efficiency of the whole platform.

It's interesting to note, the power savings of the CPU is far from the whole story. What Apple has done to drive power efficiency across the entire device -- display, storage, wireless NIC, memory, and of course the drivers and other low level OS hooks into all those devices -- that's where the biggest efficiency gains truly lie. I've watched the i7-8750H processor in my Gigabyte Aero 15x v8 sit at 0.3w at idle and stay under 1w while in use. Left only to this number, the 95whr battery should last for nine days and 23 hours! What actually murders battery life is the other supplementary but necessary equipment surrounding the processor, which takes my 1w processor from nearly 10 days of uptime to just above 10 hours of uptime.

Apple's amazing vertical integration for all hardware, OS, drivers and software is what truly makes the M1 / M2 devices so compelling.
 

Wesker

Regular
Battery life under heavy loads is every bit as shit as comparable 100W total Windows laptops.

2hrs is exactly how long this thing lives under heavy loads.
It's various low load scenarios where AAPL uncore efficiency (and morbidly efficient LITTLEs) shine.
Do you have any reliable benchmarks or reviews to back these claims up?

I’m not seeing evidence that would indicate that the full CPU load power consumption of M1/M2 would equal their Intel/AMD counterparts;
In fact, Apple’s advantage is extended when you normalise for battery size.

In the next review, the M2 MBA either matches or beats AMD and Intel high end ultraportable CPUs when they’re all plugged in.
Performance drops quite significantly on the AMD and Intel configs when switching to battery mode while the MBA stays the same. The MBA also has the longest battery life under heavy CPU load despite having the smallest battery.

Uncore power consumption of M1/M2 is great. But I think it’s disingenuous to suggest that is the primary source of efficiency differences between Apple and Intel/AMD architectures.
 

wco81

Legend
The high prices of Apple products will prevent them from getting too big a market share outside of some quarters when a hot new iPhone comes out and only then will they have a market share over 50% for a few months, just in the US.

You can say how great the M2 MacBook Pros are but they start at a minimum of $2000, which is probably like 3 times the average selling price of all laptops.
 

Bondrewd

Veteran
I’m not seeing evidence that would indicate that the full CPU load power consumption of M1/M2 would equal their Intel/AMD counterparts;
Ugh we're talking M1/2 Pro/Max and not the shitty tablet part with crippled I/O.
M2 full load is like ~18W, M2 Pro is 35 to 40W which isn't really far off where the likes of Phoenix1 excel.
We. Are. Talking. Pros.
You can say how great the M2 MacBook Pros are but they start at a minimum of $2000, which is probably like 3 times the average selling price of all laptops.
Eh, ThinkPad P1's and other comparable machines start about there, too.
Maybe a bit less.
 
Eh, ThinkPad P1's and other comparable machines start about there, too.
Maybe a bit less.
you cant really compare PC laptops in that way , Think pads cost stupid money because because vendors like to segregate on TPM/AMT and thinkpads are designed / tested against MIL-STD 810G.

take something like an idea pad pro which is a really nice laptop (except for some reason it has the worst speakers in the world ) and its very different money.
 

Wesker

Regular
Ugh we're talking M1/2 Pro/Max and not the shitty tablet part with crippled I/O.
M2 full load is like ~18W, M2 Pro is 35 to 40W which isn't really far off where the likes of Phoenix1 excel.

We. Are. Talking. Pros.

Eh, ThinkPad P1's and other comparable machines start about there, too.
Maybe a bit less.
That “shitty tablet CPU” seems to wipe the floor with its non-tablet competitors. Weird.

The video linked featured the M1 Pro, which had no problem outgunning Intel/AMD ULV parts in battery life tests under CPU load. M2/Pro/Max, like the M1 series, features the exact same CPU cores across the lineup. They all have the same clock and power profiles.

Almost every reviewer — either PC- or Apple-leaning — have benchmark results which run counter to your original claim.

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But I’m curious and happy to read a proper review which disagrees with the consensus.
 

PSman1700

Legend
Even if Apple M1/M2 products would be at the same price range, still wouldnt be all that impressive performance wise vs what windows based machines can offer. Aside from battery-usage then.
 

Wesker

Regular
MT performance graph, ST power consumption graph ...
?
They're both power consumption graphs.


Anyway, on another note: I'm checking out of this thread, and probably soon from B3D. There are dozens of reviews posted in this thread, and almost every hardware reviewer on the planet has praised the performance, energy efficiency, and battery life of M1/M2 Pro/Max/Ultra as being industry leading even against newer parts from Intel and AMD. If you're not convinced now, then you'll never be convinced. Partisanship will always overcome facts and evidence, and continuing this discussion will lead this thread going the way of Architectures & Products.

Peace out and keep an eye out on those M2 Pro/Max reviews.
 
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