AMD's new Mantle API - Console Perspective

Discussion in 'Console Technology' started by Shortbread, Sep 26, 2013.

  1. Shortbread

    Shortbread Island Hopper
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    AMD Mantle implications on Xbox One and PS4

    Questions as follows...

    1) Doesn't Sony own PSSL and other toolchains pretty much does this?
    2) Wouldn't Sony benefit more from this than Microsoft - since MS Dx API's business model would conflict "if" they started using AMD's Mantle API's on XB1?
    3) Are XB1 developers limited to the MS Dx toolchain family?
     
  2. XpiderMX

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    And DirectX on Xbox too.


    I don't think so, Mantle has some "compability" with DirectX, they are using same shader language than DirectX (or something like this).

    Yes, but Xbox DX is not the same than Windows DX, only the API is the same.

    And Anandtech is guessing that Mantle is based on Xbox One's DirectX:

    http://www.anandtech.com/show/7371/...evel-graphics-api-for-gcn#Aa67A2sOwWg8AthR.16

    If true, it benefits more to Xbox One than PS4.
     
  3. DrJay24

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    Unless this works on Nvidia it is kind of dead in the water. Who is going to write PC games for two APIs?
     
  4. Scott_Arm

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    I don't see how Mantle benefits either of them, really. I can see how it might hurt Microsoft a bit if it moves people away from DirectX and onto Linux or another OS that supports it. It could help a Steam "console" with mid-range PC specs compete with Xbox One and PS4.
     
  5. DSoup

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    Not really. DirectX (and OpenGL) are high level APIs, where levels of abstraction that ensure that calls to the DirectX API work across AMD, Intel , nVidia or any other GPU hardware. Mantle appears to be low-level akin to LibGCM (PlayStation 3) and GNM (PlayStation 4) for AMD's GCN architecture. The idea being less layers of abstraction to: a) improve performance and b) free your hardware featureset from the slower advances of DirectX (and OpenGL).

    Would like to hear from Dave on this.
     
  6. Scott_Arm

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    The big EA umbrella that makes a lot of high-quality and big-selling games.
     
  7. gurgi

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    How could mantle function in a virtualized hardware environment like the xbox one?
     
  8. XpiderMX

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    It is on one of the pictures on the presentation:

    [​IMG]

    It is compatible with DirectX HLSL (shader Language), the last point on the left.
     
  9. DSoup

    DSoup meh
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    Sorry, should have clarified. HSSL - yes, everything else - no. Based on what's been said thus far. The world doesn't need a DirectX compatible API on the platform with runs DirectX.
     
  10. Scott_Arm

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    You just have the driver expose the hardware the same as you would with a regular driver in a non-virtualized environment. That said, I don't think you'll see Mantle on Xbox One because Microsoft controls the device driver. They may already have a lot of the features of Mantle in their own driver anyway.
     
  11. dumbo11

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    It's a weird one:
    - we know that there were rumours that developers were unhappy at the level of access to the hardware on the XB1.
    - we know that after E3 MS replaced/refreshed/upgraded their API.
    - on the other hand, did Sony have the resources to create 2 quality drivers for very complex hardware and have them "finished" before MS (who have a great deal of experience in driver work)?

    And then there's the "it started 2 years ago", which seems similar to when these consoles may have started serious R&D.

    It's plausible that AMD created a 'reference console driver' for Sony/MS to build upon, and they are releasing that driver for the PC?
     
  12. tuna

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    I do not think making the drivers are that big investment. You can look at how many people working on the FLOSS Linux AMD graphics drivers, there are not that many.
     
  13. XpiderMX

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    I never read something like this, what I've read is drivers performance issues, but it looks like it is not an issue now.
     
  14. Shifty Geezer

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    It was mentioned, I think in Edge, that dev(s ?) had said that they could go lower to the metal on PS4.

    I don't see any correlation between Mantle and the consoles. It's a PC tech for PCs; consoles have no need of it. AMD may have picked up some ideas from the console to create Mantle, but I don't see consoles benefiting.
     
  15. Cyan

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    As Shifty pointed out already, PS4 and Xbox One wouldn't need it, I think.

    I wonder if Mantle does mean the death of DirectX. MS still have some patents on 3D acceleration so it wouldn't be a huge issue for them, but it can happen...

    Aside from that, NVidia could face irrelevance if they don't support this technology.

    PC gamers are going to love something like this where they can make the most out of their GPUs and their hardware can run games at smoother framerates with improved graphics.
     
  16. BRiT

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    To play devils advocate, has anything AMD done taken off to the point of killing any competing APIs or products? Why would this API be any different from their other attempts? In other words, DirectX isn't going to die from Mantle.
     
  17. Jay

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    Or Nvidia could release their own low level api, after seeing how Mantel solves any windows problems :)

    If anything Dave said it himself, what's one more API to support from middleware developers, if anything it's a selling point.

    Why doesn't AMD support their old chipsets? Because it's low level to the gcn architecture.
    That's why I doubt it's so simple for Nvidia regardless of the openness(is how much known) of Mantel.
     
  18. DJ12

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    I wonder if this will make ps4 ports even easier? With mantle and ps4 allowing very low level access surely there will be some correlation for commands.
     
  19. blakjedi

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    Does anyone believe that MS didn't know about Mantle before today?
     
  20. shredenvain

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    I dont see how its going to have any real benefit for consoles at all.
    If anything it could help further the gap between pc and console.
    The only way i could see mantle as a positive for microsoft is if they could somehow require the use of direct x with mantle. As far as sony goes i guess it depends on how similar it is to there low level api they use on PlayStation. I could see mantle being influenced by the low level api of the xbox one since its compatible with direct x
     
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