About GC fixed function TnL

[chaphack]

Or whatever that is. I been hearing that GC Gekko TnL is fixed, DX7 class, inflexible, less cool etc.

So what is the real problem here? I mean, seeing some of the better GC games, they do look great, with good geometry, textures and pixel effects. Can anyone clue me in on this? What is it about the TnL that holds back the GC?

 

[V3]

What is it about the TnL that holds back the GC?

Since when does TnL holds anything back ? Its there to boost performance.

 

[archie4oz]

Or whatever that is. I been hearing that GC Gekko TnL is fixed, DX7 class, inflexible, less cool etc.

Err, uhh, don't you mean Flipper?

 

[chaphack]

Erh yes...Gek..Flipper. So whats up with the fixed TnL? Where is its drawback in making good graphics? I am sure archiez is more than qualified to give his comments.

 

[Gubbi]

Watch yourself

 

[London Geezer]

you too

 

[Clashman]

I should just delete all these posts

 

[Grall]

So what is the real problem here?

Some would say that is you , but trying not to be rude, I would ask a counter-question: IS there a problem you think, if even you say games look good?

Just be content with GC putting out some kick-arse visuals, that's all that matters.

*G*

 

[London Geezer]

chappy sweetheart, if u're the first to say that GC games look good enough, why should there be a problem?
why is it that everytime something non-xbox comes up, u feel the need to come here and troll about it? can't u go to the IGN.com boards to do that?

like, now, u must have read the word "inflexible" somewhere and elaborated in your little twisted mind that it could be a very good reason to come here and troll about it...

thing is, if the games look good, why worry about it and not leave it to the devs to comment on how *good* or *bad* it is? that is, after all, the point of these boards. to let devs comment on stuff and let people like us (non-devs) go "ooooohhh i see" and "huh? english please?"...

get my point?

 

[Teasy]

chap did word his question quite poorly there (focused too much on GC rather then T&L in general). But I think basically all he's asking is whats the main limitation of DX7 T&L and how does it differ when compared to a DX8/9 vertex shader.

 

[Crazyace]

Pros and Cons,

In some cases Chap, fixed T&L can be faster, because the designers can play extra computational units in parrallel to speed things up. For the Flipper, the lighting is calculated in parrallel with the transforms. ( and both flipper and NVx calculate clipping at the same time effectively )

However the downside of fixed functionality is that circuitry is wasted if you aren't using it, and there is no easy way to get extra functionality out of the pipeline.
On one hand, trivial transforms ( fixed geometry ) end up leaving the lighting and texture transfom circuitry idle, and on the other hand more complex operations such as multiple bone skinning end up having to be calculated on the CPU.
At the extreme you have the PS2 vector unit, which is fully programmable and flexible - but isnt rated as highly.. ( About 3Gflops compared to the 11ish on flipper )

 

[Tagrineth]

GCN's fixed-function T&L isn't TOO limited...

...mainly because it looks like having Gekko pop in and modify ("shade") vertex data isn't too expensive on performance (Luigi's Mansion, for example, does it a lot).

 

[Blade]

Chap: Maybe people wouldn't bill you as a troll so much if you didn't hold the Xbox over other consoles for superficial reasons.

"Cool factor" should have nothing to do with hardware; it's more on the software end, if anything.

That is, unless you've got a hardware fetish. Whoa, baby.. that's a nice framerate you've got there! Whew!

 

[LogisticX]

Chap: Maybe people wouldn't bill you as a troll so much if you didn't hold the Xbox over other consoles for superficial reasons.

Not only that, but as seen in this very thread, he knows VERY little about the points he tries to argue. He'll just regurgitate someone elses opinion if it helps him feel that Xbox is more superior.

If you're going to rant about how Xbox does better bump-mapping or insert-buzzword-here, at least know what the hell it IS. :?

 

[vrecan]

I really dont know why you guys got on his case so much in this thread to me it seemed like he was asking a simple question and all you guys did was bash him for it... Chap has posted some stupid things in the past but this wasn't that bad.

 

[Tagrineth]

Or whatever that is. I been hearing that GC Gekko TnL is fixed, DX7 class, inflexible, less cool etc.

So what is the real problem here? I mean, seeing some of the better GC games, they do look great, with good geometry, textures and pixel effects. Can anyone clue me in on this? What is it about the TnL that holds back the GC?

By the way, guys, he's saying that the games look fine; his question is IN WHAT WAY is DX7 fixed-function T&L holding the 'cube back, because as far as he can see, there's no problem.

 

[Blade]

Logistic: True, but he only made two errors.

A. Calling Flipper "Gekko" (which is alright, considering that some people bashed Zelda: The Wind Waker while saying that "Zelda" looks too much like a Powerpuff Girl.. That's a much worse offense IMO..)

B. Not knowing exactly what T&L is or how GCN's T&L/TEV works. All he knew were the basics: That it's more akin to DX7-level T&L than Xbox's implementation.. and thus that it's not as "flexible".

Chap has made some sh**ty posts in the past, but this time I think he was genuinely asking for information.

 

[jvd]

Alot of you need to stop this right now. This thread has alot of problems and none of them are chap. I suggest you all cut this crap right now. Or you will be looking for y our posts. Don't make me warn you guys again .

now please don't make me use my mod voice again.

 

[Almasy]

Chap deserves it, jvd. He´s a dumb troll that has to rely on someone else´s intelgence to support his arguement that Xbox is God. I don´t know why you tolerate him, if anything, this thread proves that everyone is sick of him and what a negative effect he produces on the forums.

Once again, I don´t know why you tolerate him, much less support him. He should be banned for good, a mod supporting him only states that trolls are welcome in this board.

 

[jvd]

I support no trolling. Problem is he is not hte one trolling here. He asked a question and instead of flameing him you should explain things to him so that in the future he wont argue points when he is wrong .

I'm a moderater i'm supposed to stop the trolling. Any trolling.