8800 SLI vs AA

Discussion in '3D Hardware, Software & Output Devices' started by Ozo, Sep 18, 2007.

  1. SirPauly

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    Subjective, imho!

    All you have to do is try the x16s mixed mode and look at your alpha tests..............and then use your super-sampled TA. Both are using x4 super-sampled on Alpha tests but yet the x4 TA looks so much better on Alphas.

    Why?

    The quality of pattern.

    When end-users see ordered grid quality on the textures --- some may not see a real noticable difference from an IQ stand-point over-all and just feel the hit and just blanket mixed modes or super-sampled over-all.

    The x4 TA looks so nice for Alpha tests for many -- you wanna use it and some crave more performance for it.

    The mixed mode with ordered grid is nice for flexibility and does help though and doubt anyone is unhappy having the modes available.

    My point is: Having a mixed mode with quality patterns, well, you wanna use it if you can. That's all.
     
    #61 SirPauly, Sep 23, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 23, 2007
  2. AlexV

    AlexV Heteroscedasticitate
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    Umm, I think that would be a problem...it would mean that X->∞, where X=time it takes B3D to actually write a review. Not Good At All!:D
     
  3. Blazkowicz

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    you meant 3 : 16x. 4x4 is 16x OGSS ;)

    I've found the mixed modes to be sometimes useful on geforce 6/7 (I have a 6800GT).
    Transparency AA doesn't work in opengl so I use 16xS to get some decent quality in the old counterstrike. the supersampling can also help with the broken texture filtering, I run rtcw at 8xS and it seems perfect.
     
  4. ChrisRay

    ChrisRay <span style="color: rgb(124, 197, 0)">R.I.P. 1983-
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    You know its kinda funny reading all of this now. Back when I was petitioning Nvidia to readd the mixed/hybrid modes. They kept questioning me "Is there actually a demand to have these?"'

    In reality. When I was pushing for this back in Febuary I realised the demand for these modes isnt "that" high. I enjoy having them but also am recognizing I am not using them as much as I thought I would. While the demand in itself isnt that high there are certainly some users who consider the inclusion of these modes as "Deal Breakers". And thats how I presented the information to Nvidia back then. The ironic thing about it is. Some of the names here are people I used to show Nvidia that there is some demand for them still. Either way though. Nvidia already had these modes implemented for the Quadro line and previous Geforce cards. So it costs them really nothing to support them via the registry. It was just a question of re adding them.

    Chris
     
  5. SirPauly

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    It would be nice to create some polls to see if gamers/consumers would indeed desire mixed modes in certain price-point brackets.

    Feel the higher the price of the card or platform, well, the more performance and image quality flexbility should be.

    For someone spending 200 dollars, well, their demands may be less than one spending 400 dollars or, 650 dollars or, 1300 dollars.

    With three and four GPU's on one motherboard -- is AFR the future of these beasts with virtually no added IQ flexibility over single GPU's? -And just whatever the developer adds for application IQ features?

    We shall see I guess.
     
  6. AlphaWolf

    AlphaWolf Specious Misanthrope
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    I think the question should be more along the lines of what level of effort do you want the driver team to spend on those features vs other fixes/features?
     
  7. SirPauly

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    That's a very valid point..

    It's easy to desire these features and simply pay monies............but many end-users may not really understand the work involved to do this, one may imagine. I know I don't.

    As time passes though and 3d gets more powerful -- hopefully other steps to improve immersion similar to Adaptive technologies for Alpha tests have offered for immersion.

    My point was only from a gaming standpoint: A mixed mode would be a nice stop-gap till these technologies surface and why IHV's may of offered them officially in the past and still do in some products. They do have some immersive value, imho!:)

    The ability to continue to force AA when possible is a good thing 'till developers are on similar pages to offer the best immersion for gamers -- Oblivion with HDR/AA is a perfect illustration of this.

    Just passionate about 3d, gaming and immersion -- even though there may be ignorance on my part at times.
     
  8. Ailuros

    Ailuros Epsilon plus three
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    When I get bored I sometimes replay older games and it's fairly stupid in such cases to not make the best possible use of the tons of available fillrate for those, especially when they're limited in resolutions.

    Hell you can even use either 8xS or 16xS in recent NFS series games (not the most recent ones of course) in 1600*1200.

    Anyway at all times such a conversation came up I pointed out that I wholeheartedly welcomed the re-addition of the hybrid modes, but that doesn't change the neither the fact that FOR ME their usability is limited only to the above case.

    When I pay 650 Euros for a GPU, a simple change in the registry as you say is something I'm entitled to ask for, even if it's for the minority of my gaming hours in total.
     
  9. SirPauly

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    The way I used to look at was like this -- Since I like the idea of dual GPU's was this view:

    1) The potential to double your frame-rate over one card.

    2) The potential to double your image quality over one card for two quick examples.

    A x4 MSAA setting with one card offering 60 FPS basically translated into x8 MSAA with x2 SSAA at 60 FPS with 2 cards.

    A x4 MSAA with performance adaptive ( 2 alpha tests) at 60 FPS basically translated to x8 MSAA with performance adaptive ( 4 alpha tests ) with x2 SSAA -- which still did another two alpha tests for 6 total at 60 FPS with two cards.

    This was nice flexibility for its time. The tough pill to swallow at times is waiting for AFR profiles, etc..
     
    #69 SirPauly, Sep 28, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 28, 2007
  10. SirPauly

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  11. tabs

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    I believe I may have been on that list Chris, and thanks to having SS back I've bagged myself an 8800GTX. You should link this and get your commision. :)
     
  12. Ozo

    Ozo
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    With the G80 series, I am very interrested in the 16x SLI-AA mode, i.e. 8xMSAA on each GPU.

    However, I heard that OpenGL apps can not get access to this mode, unless you have Quadro cards. Is it true that this mode is available to directX apps?

    Isn't it strange?

    Ozo.
     
  13. Rayne

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    What SLI AA modes are available in the G80/GT200/... ?

    I did read about 8x SLI AA (4xMSAA per GPU), and 16x SLI AA (8xS per GPU).

    Is there something like 2x2 RGSS (1x2 RGSS per GPU) ?

    Thank you very much. :)
     
  14. Dooby

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    Holy thread resurrection batman!...
     
  15. homerdog

    homerdog donator of the year
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    I don't think NVIDIA supports RGSS, at least I've never found a way to enable it, but I'd love to be wrong. FWIW ordered grid SS can be accessed via nHancer.

    I wonder, are you inquiring because you plan on implementing some uber AA in your BR2 AA patch?

    Hmm after further review of this thread I see some references to RGSS but perhaps only for SLI?
     
    #75 homerdog, Dec 11, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 11, 2008
  16. Rayne

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    I was doing some numbers, and trying to figure how to run BR2 at 1920x1200 with SSAA 2x2 at >100fps.

    My overclocked 8800GTX (100 GB/s) can run the game at 50fps with SSAA 2x2, but, only at 43fps with 8xS (1x2 SS + 4x MS).

    I think that the GTX280 with 140GB/s could run the game at +70fps at least, but, it isn't enough to spend the money.

    I own a X48 intel mobo, so SLI isn't an option for me, but, i was thinking about the 'dual chip gt200' upcoming card.

    A gtx260 with 448bit at 999MHz has around 112 GB/s, so, it could run the game at 60fps.

    I know that my card can run the game at 75-80 fps with SSAA 1x2 or 2x1, so, this gtx 260 could run the game at 90-96fps.

    If there is a SLI AA mode that does 1x2 RGSS per GPU, i could be running the game at 2x2 RGSS with the dual gpu card, a little slower than 90-96 fps.

    A little of overclocking could help to reach the 100fps, and if i'm right, these SLI AA modes have no micro stuttering.

    But there is another problem, i dunno if my patch will be compatible with the SLI AA modes. :???:
     
  17. 2008 IQ is unacceptable

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    I had thought that it was only the last 8 months or so of drivers in which opengl didn't work with trss. Why doesn't open gl support trss? ATI recently started supporting it.

    Also, why does every opengl game seem to not be applying hq when hq is forced thru the cp? What exactly breaks the filtering in return to castle wolfenstein?

    Nope, you're right.

    As for aa, i've become more open to leaving it up to the developers to do thru shaders since I'm not a programmer, and since I've finally began to realize not to take for granted that all of my ideas are possible, thanks to the help from people here.

    however, what I know for sure, is that either the ihvs and/or the developers need to simply start the process that would make it so aliasing (texture and geometry) is no longer detectable in all future games. It will take a while, so I think they should get started soon lol. If they haven't already; I don't know.

    All I can say for sure, is that I think aa needs an overhaul, and it doesn't matter who does it, as long as they do it the best it can be while causing the least amount of pain. the Legendary john mill would wish for that if he were alive today and if he applied his philosophy to video games.
     
  18. Blazkowicz

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    there's a fundamental weakness in geforce 6/7's aniso filtering, causing some shimmering noise along some mipmap transitions. It's by design, so they could make cheap (on transistor count) and fast units. Very noticeable in Warcraft III when you zoom in with the mousewheel.

    when I have money and find a good deal on a silent geforce 8/9 I'll upgrade mostly for that reason :razz: (along with the angle dependency of geforce 6/7 AF)
     
  19. Rayne

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    Among other things, this is why i upgraded to a 8800GTX, the AF quality is really awesome.

    Did ATi enhance the AF quality too ? Check this for reference: http://techreport.com/articles.x/11211/6
     
  20. Blazkowicz

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    it's good already on the X1900 (have you seen the "high quality" section?), they kept it the same.
    ATI's AF is said to be indistinguishable from NV's except if you build a pathological screenshot.
     
    #80 Blazkowicz, Dec 14, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 14, 2008
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