20nm Samsung and 20nm Yields

Discussion in 'Graphics and Semiconductor Industry' started by Wynix, Sep 25, 2013.

  1. Wynix

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    The original article is "Samsung to build 20nm foundry capacity, sources say" but i feel the 20nm yields are more interesting.


     
  2. Alexko

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    The problem is that yields expressed as absolute percentages without any qualification of the structures being manufactured aren't terribly meaningful.
     
  3. entity279

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    Surely they aren't talking about complex CPUs here, so the numbers do sound terrible anyway, even if not precise
     
  4. Wynix

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    While you are somewhat correct, i believe it is safe to assume the structures are ARM based.
    After all this is based on "sources" so we can be flexible about the technical details.
     
  5. Homeles

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    Aren't these typical early-life yields? They still have several months to go before volume manufacturing begins, and even then, it's going to be early volume manufacturing where wafers are scarce, prices are high, and deisgns are few.

    By the end of the year, TSMC will likely be yielding more than twice as well.
     
  6. Alexko

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    It's just that when you see "leaked" information that doesn't really make sense, you have to seriously consider the possibility that it's just made up.
     
  7. Homeles

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    This does make sense though... they're risk, or even pre-risk production yields. Nothing out of the ordinary here. The only interesting bit this yield information gives us, assuming that it's true, is that Samsung's 20nm node is a few months behind TSMC's, which shouldn't surprise anyone.

    Remember how an AMD spokesperson said that Hawaii isn't 20nm, because it'd be slower? This is why. The process variability and yields are so poor right now, that there is literally no benefit for using the 20nm node. Simply put, it isn't ready, and we already knew that.

    So no, there's nothing really interesting about the yields . The interesting bit, as per the article title, is that Samsung is expanding 20nm capacity. The mobile device war has had interesting implications on fab companies as well... TSMC is doing very well, and Samsung is trying to get a slice of the pie. Of course, so is GloFo. And Intel. And potentially others that I may have missed.

    Someone's going to get hurt in all of this. It is unlikely, with all of the rapid expansion going on, that everybody is going to be a winner. So, who are the losers going to be?
     
    #7 Homeles, Sep 27, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 27, 2013
  8. Silent_Buddha

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    Samsung has been producing chips on 20 nm node for well over half a year now with chips actually in shipping products. 19 nm TLC NAND and 21 nm MLC NAND. I'm not sure they are actually behind TMSC. Although perhaps they are behind TMSC for ARM SOC production on 20 nm.

    Regards,
    SB
     
  9. Wynix

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    This is obviously not talking about NAND products.
     
  10. Blazkowicz

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    Yes flash is very different and more easy.
    Likewise when you see yet again a CPU with most of its area as SRAM cache, the SRAM takes area but it is relatively trouble free next to logic parts.
     
  11. aaronspink

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    You are comparing two completely different types of processes. A NAND/DRAM process has little relation to a logic process as far as yields and process maturity. Both the transistor and (intra)metal layer optimization and characteristics are so different they have little bearing on each other. Using 20nm DRAM/NAND transistors and metal stacks would result in performance so bad that it is unlikely to surpass 35/45nm logic process performance.
     
  12. Blazkowicz

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    Also why eDRAM is very hard. It's a little marvel that it is possible at all (afaik, only IBM does it on 32nm?, and even 22nm on POWER8)
     
  13. willardjuice

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    It's not hard per say, it just adds months to production (can be only a month if rushed iirc) and does not yield quite as well as normal dram. It's a cost/benefit problem.
     
  14. Wynix

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    Not sure where to post this;

    Samsung Mass Producing Industry's Most Advanced 4 Gb DDR3, Using 20 nm Process

    What are the chances we will see desktop RAM use this?
    Samsung released some cheap 30nm DDR3 1600Mhz @ 1.35V that was crazy good, but supply ran out once word got out how good it overclocked.
     
    #14 Wynix, Mar 11, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 11, 2014
  15. Nebuchadnezzar

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    http://blogs.barrons.com/techtrader...eased-risk-of-losses-to-samsung-says-bluefin/

    Ramp up up to 12000wpm in July, "going to Qualcomm". Would be their 20nm MDM9x35 modems. The Exynos 5430 seems more and more dubious getting a large volume product win, and from what I've read in past few weeks from investor analyses, Apple truly will simply skip Samsung at 20nm due to them not committing to the node and concentrating on 14nm. The Austin fab is apparently the only one ramping up 20nm while the two other Korean fabs are migrating over to 14nm.
     
  16. McHuj

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  17. MfA

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    Wasn't that just the XB1/PS4 APU's? Doesn't mean much, AMD has contractual obligations to build APUs at GloFo (they got a temporary waiver) so that was almost inevitable.
     
  18. Alexko

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    AMD has clearly stated that some discrete graphics manufacturing will be moved to GloFo. Exactly how much is unknown, but there are rumors that all upcoming 28nm GPUs (which I guess means Iceland, Tonga and Maui) will be manufactured by GloFo.

    Further, Beema and Mullins are made by GF. They're technically APUs, but also evidence that GF's 28nm process is at least comparable to TSMC's in performance and power-efficiency for AMD's graphics IP.
     
    #18 Alexko, May 19, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: May 20, 2014
  19. Erinyes

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    Interesting article here as well - http://www.eetimes.com/author.asp?section_id=36&doc_id=1322399

    TSMC's 20m capacity expected to be 60,000 WPM by Q4.
     
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