DDR v. Rambus: DDR Wins?

Sigh.

I can't believe that. Intel endure the pain of the last few years and then just as things begin to turn around for the better - with both performance showing RDRAM to be strong and price getting parity - they turn around and drop it entirely.
 
RDRAM isnt that much superior to SDRAM, and Rambus has contributed nothing really usefull to the industry ... without them we would have had SLDRAM which although on the looks of it was inferior in actual physical implementation turned out to give on par performance (but by the time it was clear RDRAM was overhyped it was too late). Given that they "contributed" something we would have had anyway but cheaper and managed to cause widespread trouble in the process I am perfectly happy with SDRAM winning out.

They set a poor example, as long as there is no patent reform their course of action is only logical from a capitalistic point of view (ie. a-moral) but if by some weird fluke of bad PR and circumstances they still manage to not profit from their fine (ab-)use of the patent process then that can only be a good thing. Not everyone will realise it was a fluke, and it might stop some people from traveling the same road.
 
I'm not an EE by any means, but I've heard that DDR-II as it is being planned now uses more and more DRDRAM concepts as it ramps in speed.

I don't have any links to back it up, but maybe Saem or someone else does.
 
MfA,

I couldn't agree more. Though out of what's available currently DRDRAM is/was the better choice, I'd rather have SLDRAM.

BenM,

I'm not so sure. That's probably more to do with my lack of knowledge. ;)

From my understanding -simplified form-, they cut the memory array speed in half, by having it transfer data in a more parallel fashion (X2) than current DDR, which means to achieve the same interface clock (bus speed), you can have your DDR-II memory clocked at half of what DDR would require. Basically, this is great for the PC world, but in other areas it's not the best thing.

I hope I got all of that right.

I can't believe that. Intel endure the pain of the last few years and then just as things begin to turn around for the better - with both performance showing RDRAM to be strong and price getting parity - they turn around and drop it entirely.

I have to agree that Intel put up with a lot of shit for little return. I'm sure Samsung is freakin' out. Seeing as how much they invested in DRDRAM. Not saying they've lost all their market, but this is a big blow.

As an aside, while we're on the topic of SLDRAM, would it really be that hard for a Graphics card/PU developer to use SLDRAM?
 
Ah, here's an update on the RDRAM situation from HardOCP:

Our friends at Anandtech reported yesterday that Mr. Siu had stated that the
current i850E would be the last chipset supporting RDRAM, although upon writing this it seems that the statement has been removed from their website. Mr. Siu explained to us that he had been misquoted. While he would not go into detail, he gave the impression that Intel would continue to support RDRAM in the future. So it seems as though we'll certainly see RDRAM and DDR RAM both stay strong in Intel's current marketing strategies.

Possibly the next NetBurst core won't be branded "Pentium 4", and that's where Anand and crew got confused.
 
I think thats the point I'm getting at - from an outsiders perspective Itenal have endured no end of flak from the press and other people over their support for RDRAM, however now that the P4 is ramping up in clocksped and and the RDRAM price has come towards price parity we've seen quite a few memberos of the press soften their stance and some even do a complete u-turn. Now that they have good benchmark scores out there with the P4 533bus and PC1066 RAM showing a pretty heathly numbers it seems odd from a business perspective for Intel to drop it just as it was getting some support.
 
There was a recent crash in the DDR market, discounting that Dave's comments are accurate.
 
I hadn't looked at prices recently, but it wasn't so long ago that there was parity between RDRAM and DDR.
 
PC800 was at parity with PC2100 a couple of months ago. Even now, the price difference between branded DDR PC2700 and RDRAM PC800 is very small. But PC1066 RDRAM right now is more than 2x the price of branded PC2700. And since RDRAM has to be added in pairs, the price difference is very significant.

Right now I run a P4/SiS645 with a PC3200 DIMM @ DDR400 speed. The bandwidth is equal to dual channel PC800 RDRAM and overall performance is almost equal (most things faster, some things slower).
 
But PC1066 RDRAM right now is more than 2x the price of branded PC2700.

Well, MB’s that support PC1066 aren’t widespread at the moment since the chipset has only just been released – given time and demand (and subsequent oversupply!) that will go down.

And since RDRAM has to be added in pairs, the price difference is very significant.

Eh? The you either buy two sticks each at half the total RAM you want or you get twice the RAM!
 
I've read that P4's need the bandwidth RDRAM affords as they scale up.

Form Maximum PC:

"For all-out Pentium 4 performance, the answer is still RDRAM.....
DDR is cheaper than RDRAM and offers more or less the same performance, but is expected to bottleneck the P4A once the CPU passes the 2.4GHz "

http://www.maximumpc.com/reprints/reprint_2002-03-13.html#10p4

MAximum PC has tested a beta MB with RDRAM 1066 and the results looked quite impressive (with 2.533 MHz P4), although they have not tested PC2700.
 
Saying the P4 needs bandwidth to perform better is misleading. Within this statement is couched an implication to the effect of, the P4 is some how weaker than other processors due to this need. If I was to increase the memory bandwidth for the Athlon we'd see performance improvements as well.

The processor/CPU performance disparity is merely more noticed on the P4 due to its L2 cache. The L2 cache has large cache lines and it's eviction rate is high, so it leans more heavily on the memory sub-system, unless we're talking about streaming programs were eviction of reusable data is less often and prefetching works nicely to hide memory latency. This is why Northwood shows such dramatic improvements.

The current speculation is the Prescott will sport a 1M L3 cache, with a 128-256KB L2 cache. There will be a fair number of transistors left over for an improved floating point unit - the latter is wishful thinking on my part. I suspect there will be improvements made to the trace cache allowing for more decodes per cycle rather than increasing it's capacity. It's speculated that the trace cache is more than 64KB.

As for increasing the cache on the Athlon, the same wouldn't hold true for, actually if they increased the amount of cache, you'd probably see a performance hit due to increased latency and you don't want increased latency on the Athlon's L2 cache - it's already slow enough.

The fact of the matter is, there is a disparity between memory performance and Processor performance and we're seeing it. RDRAM is a technology aimed at addressing this issue. It's unfortunate that it won out over SLDRAM on hype rather than technical merit. Because if it was technical merit, we'd see SLDRAM in most systems.
 
MAximum PC has tested a beta MB with RDRAM 1066 and the results looked quite impressive (with 2.533 MHz P4), although they have not tested PC2700.

From PC800 to PC1066, there is a 33% reduction in latency. It's been measured by Ace's Hardware to be about 30% within their benchmark suite. DDR doesn't get a significant reduction in latency as it's clock scales. Even with dual channel PC2700, I doubt it'll hold a candle to a PC1066 dual channel setup.

The i850 is said to have a poor implementation of a DRDRAM memory controller. This isn't the case, the shallow buffers and minimal number of pages open at once is all to keep latency down. SiS, isn't as good as Intel when it comes to memory controllers. But, they'll have significantly reduced latencies to play with. This will mean more open pages and deeper buffers. This will tradeoff some best case latency for reducing the occurance of worst case latency. This will also mean average latency will be much lower and effective bandwidth will also be higher.

I'm very interested in seeing what SiS has to offer, though I still am very doubtful of their "quality", then again, I'm a picky person - BX forever. =)
 
RDRAM doesnt address the problem, its merely a step in the right direction. I can live with that step being skipped and just waiting for the next step, hopefully from someone else.

Personally Id like to see a common standard for processor bus, memory and maybe backplane use.
 
Hrm, I'm not so sure about that, MfA, a common bus for all of them?

What sort of bus would address the concerns of those busses?
 
Bus-LVDS with 2 biderectional parallel channels with source synchronous clocking (with nearly symmetrical read/write traffic you would keep them in unidirectional state to avoid latency from turn-around).
 
Bus-LVDS with 2 biderectional parallel channels with source synchronous clocking (with nearly symmetrical read/write traffic you would keep them in unidirectional state to avoid latency from turn-around).

Not sure if that's the way to go, throughput and latency have to be balanced, depending on the application.

Besides, bus protocols are another issue. Are you suggesting running control and data over the same lines with an abstraction layer at each piece of hardware that interprets what's going on?

Or are we talking point to point multidrop busses where one can transmit using the same hardware implementation on the motherboard but have different control logic for the different devices. Again, the abstraction layer would mean more latency.

Timing on the memory side can be a bitch, might the design you initially mention cause problems or is there an implication of a new memory design?
 
Intel's processor bus carries nearly nothing else but memory traffic, so its application isnt very different from a memory bus. Hammer's bus in multiprocessor setups acts likewise.

And yes, Im suggesting multiplexed control/data, ala HT. How much does HT add in RTT? 40 ns I think? That seems manageable (IMO logic will get faster disproportionally to the bus speed anyway, bus cycles will dominate latency).

Timing would be no more a bitch than it is with say RDRAM.
 
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