EU PS3 = Software PS2 Emulation

[Shifty Geezer]

You'd be surprised!

You're right, I would be. The only platform to have BC that mattered was PS2, because it improved on the experience and had a dearth of PS2 native software worth buying. No consoles before it cared much to have out-of-the-box BC, and after that it hasn't shown it's importance. No-one bought an XB360 to play XB games. Nor did people buy Wii's to play GC games, or PS3's to play PS2 games. The ability to play old games has advantages, and is a welcome feature, but it isn't the deciding factor to what platform to buy.

'I will buy a Wii because it plays GC games.' 'I will buy an XB360 despite wanting a Wii because XB360 has BC with my XB collection, and Wii doesn't.'

Who thinks like that?

 

[TheChefO]

You're right, I would be. The only platform to have BC that mattered was PS2, because it improved on the experience and had a dearth of PS2 native software worth buying. No consoles before it cared much to have out-of-the-box BC, and after that it hasn't shown it's importance. No-one bought an XB360 to play XB games. Nor did people buy Wii's to play GC games, or PS3's to play PS2 games. The ability to play old games has advantages, and is a welcome feature, but it isn't the deciding factor to what platform to buy.

'I will buy a Wii because it plays GC games.' 'I will buy an XB360 despite wanting a Wii because XB360 has BC with my XB collection, and Wii doesn't.'

Who thinks like that?

If the boxes your considering seem equal in most ways (both have games you like, cost the same, etc) Many people would go with the one that allowed their investment in their old games to live on in the new console. I have no mass numbers to support my words, just opinions of people I know.

 

[Shark Sandwich]

Don't forget the AOL connection too.

One question though to you all though. Were you really planning to play your old ps2 games on ps3? I don't mean the ability, I mean the repeated action.

I definitely would. I also own a 1080i CRT HDTV which works just fine with SD content, though. It would be nice to get rid of the PS2 and just have the PS3 hooked up. Plus, the possibility of graphical enhancements had me excited.

Honestly, it's not the end of the world for me if PS3 doesn't have good backwards compatibility. It just pisses me off that we were misled about it. Sony made this bold claim (that PS2 would eventually be emulated, eliminating the need for EE + GS), we all gave them the benefit of the doubt, and Sony screwed us yet again.

 

[Gradthrawn]

A lot more forgiving of sd content.

Definitely! Some of my family seem intent on dropping a big Hi-Def plasma in the living room, when the highest def content they watch are "digital" 480p cable signals and some DVDs. This TV is darn good at cleaning up SD signals, and its, relatively, small size helps a lot with that (36").

I'm guessing most that game on hd progressive panels can't wait to plug an hd signal and forget sd games ever existed. It's truly painful to go back.

I can definitely understand that logic. But when there are SD games out there you just have to play, you're going to do it somehow and on whatever display you're working with. I can empathize with European consumers in particular since some of the finest PS2 are just now coming out or are soon to be released. SCE's timing on this couldn't be worse for the European market, and they can go a long way towards rectifying this situation by:

A) Having compatibility for the high quality titles out there, regardless of their commercial success (games like ICO and SoC come to mind).

B) Making the experience more enjoyable by having a very good upscaling technique employed for the PS1/2 games that are compatible, along with other enhancements.

You can only do so much with SD content, I know. And the TV will likely have its own internal scaler. So, ideally, whatever enhancement method the PS3 uses, would have to be something the TV's scaler couldn't do, and that can only be done at the source. Just don't ask me what that could be.

*It's odd being on the other side of the courtroom of Sony litigation. calming the gaming populous from burning Sony at the stake. *

Imagine how SCEI's PR feels after this bomb got dropped on them from Japan. They were probably scrambling for weeks trying to figure out how to spin this! No price drop to show for the loss in feature set. No matter how small the feature is, or the value of the rest of the package, when people see a feature dropped they want compensation for it.

 

[Shark Sandwich]

'I will buy a Wii because it plays GC games.' 'I will buy an XB360 despite wanting a Wii because XB360 has BC with my XB collection, and Wii doesn't.'

Who thinks like that?

Come on, this is a bit of a straw man. Nobody in their right mind would make a purchasing decision solely based on what previous-generation games a system can play. It IS a major selling point for some, though.

For example, I would love to get rid of the ginormous, ugly-ass Xbox sitting under my TV. I was hoping 360's BC would be good enough for that. Then I could mod and/or sell the old Xbox. Plus, my TV has only 2 sets of component inputs. It's a pain in the ass switching between the Wii, PS2, Xbox, Xbox 360, and cable box. The fewer systems I have around, the better.

The bottom line is that this is a letdown for many. Just because YOU don't care about BC doesn't mean that it doesn't matter to everybody else.

This is just the same bullshit we heard from MS about their backwards compatibility: "We will have backwards compatibility!!!" 6 months later: "Well, um. . . you don't want backwards compatibility anyway!"

 

[DieH@rd]

What do you think about PS1 software emulation? Even PSP can emulate it without framedrops and with perfect sound. Its only matter of supporting large numbers of ps1 gamebase...

And this is perfect [and only] opportunity for us to play Shadow of the Collosus without framedrops.

 

[Ben-Nice]

It would help if they released a list of NON compatible games so people know before they start purchasing PS2 game that won't work.

 

[[maven]]

Shifty, I'm grumpy as well. I've ordered an American PS3 in light of this press release. Unfortunately, I now have to rebuy the PS2 games I want to play / finish as NTSC versions...

In any case, here are some excerpts from a Phil Harrison interview:
(source: http://www.gamepro.com/news.cfm?article_id=55108)

[The PS3 will have] almost perfect backwards compatibility. There will be some exceptions, but we believe those will be even less than we saw from PSOne to PS2.

"Backwards compatibility, as you know from PlayStation One and PlayStation 2, is a core value of what we believe we should offer. And access to the library of content people have created, bought for themselves, and accumulated over the years is necessary to create a format. PlayStation is a format meaning that it transcends many devices -- PSOne, PS2, and now PS3."

"If the developer wrote the game according to our technical requirements checklist, we will have what we believe will be almost perfect backwards compatibility. There will be some exceptions, there always are, but we believe those will be very few and far between. Even less so than we saw from PSOne to PS2."

And access to the library of content people have created, bought for themselves, and accumulated over the years is necessary to create a format. PlayStation is a format meaning that it transcends many devices -- PSOne, PS2, and now PS3.

 

[Sethamin]

Anyone can see this is a terrible move, for a number of reasons: it's absolutely horrific from a PR standpoint, particularly given previous rhetoric about it being a differentiating feature; it segments your userbase such that some consoles have more capabilities than others; and it comes with horrible timing - right at the European launch! - almost like Sony is trying to give its customers reasons to pass.

The point to observe here, though, is that Sony obviously knows this, too, and yet has committed to it anyway. Which means that the PS3 must be bleeding cash. Someone up high said "We need to reduce costs, and we need to do it NOW, and I don't give a damn about the consequences!". There's no other explanation for it. The PS2 hardware is the most logical choice to cut, especially if you feel that you might be able to make it up in software emulation.

Which means that a price cut is not in the works any time soon. An obviously bad play like this smacks of desperate measures to stem the tide of red ink.

 

[Platon]

It will depend a lot on how well the emulation works but if indeed this emulation approach is indeed immature I am surpized they are already going that route.

I would expect three things to be in place for them to switch to software emulation that does not really work since then it would not matter as much, and that would be 1) They have a big install base 2) They have plenty of software out there 3) A price cut. Right now I don't think they have any of those and personaly I didn't think they would come with this approach so fast. Although this software emulation saves them money I doubt it saves them enough so that they can price drop. The earliest I can see them price drop would be holiday season 07 if nothing else not to piss of too much the early adopters...

 

[Carl B]

I guess it's up to the Europeans in general to determine how they feel about this, but for myself B/C is an important feature. I don't know which I'm surprised with more, the speed with which Sony has come up with a new (cheaper) PS3 revision... which is a good thing, or that they put it into play before B/C support approached a more robust level - which is a bad thing.

Probably be best for everyone if that list of theirs was available now rather than at launch. I assume all the titles worth mentioning will be covered, but part of the appeal of the B/C has always been security in knowing whatever niche game would be covered as well.

 

[Platon]

Anyone can see this is a terrible move, for a number of reasons: it's absolutely horrific from a PR standpoint, particularly given previous rhetoric about it being a differentiating feature; it segments your userbase such that some consoles have more capabilities than others; and it comes with horrible timing - right at the European launch! - almost like Sony is trying to give its customers reasons to pass.

The point to observe here, though, is that Sony obviously knows this, too, and yet has committed to it anyway. Which means that the PS3 must be bleeding cash. Someone up high said "We need to reduce costs, and we need to do it NOW, and I don't give a damn about the consequences!". There's no other explanation for it. The PS2 hardware is the most logical choice to cut, especially if you feel that you might be able to make it up in software emulation.

Which means that a price cut is not in the works any time soon. An obviously bad play like this smacks of desperate measures to stem the tide of red ink.

I agree, it does seem a bit desperate to be honest. Could it be bleeding more than they expected to or what is going on?...

 

[TheChefO]

Anyone can see this is a terrible move, for a number of reasons: it's absolutely horrific from a PR standpoint, particularly given previous rhetoric about it being a differentiating feature; it segments your userbase such that some consoles have more capabilities than others; and it comes with horrible timing - right at the European launch! - almost like Sony is trying to give its customers reasons to pass.

The point to observe here, though, is that Sony obviously knows this, too, and yet has committed to it anyway. Which means that the PS3 must be bleeding cash. Someone up high said "We need to reduce costs, and we need to do it NOW, and I don't give a damn about the consequences!". There's no other explanation for it. The PS2 hardware is the most logical choice to cut, especially if you feel that you might be able to make it up in software emulation.

Which means that a price cut is not in the works any time soon. An obviously bad play like this smacks of desperate measures to stem the tide of red ink.

Interesting perspective/theory.

Hopefully for Sony it isn't the case but your right, this(losses) does seem to be the cause.

 

[Gradthrawn]

Shifty, I'm grumpy as well. I've ordered an American PS3 in light of this press release.

I don't understand why you would do that without even knowing what games work. It could be that every game you want to play and complete is BC comptable. In which case, you'll be stuck with a Region A BD player, and NA PS2/1 system.

 

[spwolf]

You mean it's never good enough? Like when we got hardware emulation people complained that there weren't any enhancements possible, like rendering at HD and so on, and now it's 'oh my god we might lose some compatibility, we're screwed'. Sony can never win, can they? Ok, if they do both and have failback until they can solidly emulate all of them ... but they are probably thinking that they are doing enough on this level compared to their direct competitor.

exactly

 

[Kryton]

They seem to be shooting themselves in the foot as regards utilising that back catalogue. They could easily (with publishers approval) leverage the catalogue over PSN and sell those games cheaply. I guess they either have it sorted, which I'd imagine is hard from talk here over eDRAM etc., or it's going to be a really dumb move.

[ I agree with the outlook though, you either don't care about BC because you didn't own a PS2 or you own a PS2 and just don't want another box, no biggie for most.

 

[spwolf]

It will depend a lot on how well the emulation works but if indeed this emulation approach is indeed immature I am surpized they are already going that route.

I would expect three things to be in place for them to switch to software emulation that does not really work since then it would not matter as much, and that would be 1) They have a big install base 2) They have plenty of software out there 3) A price cut. Right now I don't think they have any of those and personaly I didn't think they would come with this approach so fast. Although this software emulation saves them money I doubt it saves them enough so that they can price drop. The earliest I can see them price drop would be holiday season 07 if nothing else not to piss of too much the early adopters...

I am very much doubtful that this was not planned all along... You think they designed emulator in an month? I bet they simply didnt have enough time to perfect it for US launch so they built in hardware until they can do so....

it is not about price drop, it is about making money on PS3, which they dont right now... so every $20 they can save, is huge.

In fact, $26 per console is pretty huge... we are talking about some $60 million saved if they did it from start.

$60 million is development money for 6 blockbuster games like Gears...

 

[Shifty Geezer]

The bottom line is that this is a letdown for many. Just because YOU don't care about BC doesn't mean that it doesn't matter to everybody else.

I never said it didn't matter. I said that no-one is tied to a platform because of the previous library. You don't choose your next platform based solely, or mostly, on it being able to play your old games that your old console can still play.

If the boxes your considering seem equal in most ways (both have games you like, cost the same, etc) Many people would go with the one that allowed their investment in their old games to live on in the new console. I have no mass numbers to support my words, just opinions of people I know.

That's pretty much just a hypothetical situation though, as all the consoles thus released, since consoles began, have had large enough difference in software libraries, costs, features, etc., that BC is the last thing anyone's going to worry about.

Putting it another way, how many people have sat around thinking 'I want a next-gen console, and XB360 has games I like at a cheaper price-point than PS3, and I don't care for BluRay, and I'm not interested in Linux, but I'm going to buy a PS3 anyway because it'll play my collection of PS2 games'? How many people are now going to say 'What?! PS3 might not play my PS2 games?! Well I'll buy a different console instead then, because the ability to play PS2 games was the only thing attracting me to PS3!'?

 

[Geo]

I don't know which I'm surprised with more, the speed with which Sony has come up with a new (cheaper) PS3 revision... which is a good thing, or that they put it into play before B/C support approached a more robust level - which is a bad thing.

The thing that disturbs me tho, is this part of the official press release:

Rather than concentrate on PS2 backwards compatibility, in the future, company resources will be increasingly focused on developing new games and entertainment features exclusively for PS3, truly taking advantage of this exciting technology.

That suggests rather heavily they have no intention of reallly focusing on making sw emu "be all that it can be", as it were. Now, I've heard some suggestions that possibly that language is just an effort to set expectation levels at a low enough level to be able to comfortably exceed them going forward. Maybe. Maybe they decided if they were going to take the PR hit anyway, then get all the hate out now so some love can come later when they more than "clear the bar" they'd set so low. That kind of strategy is certainly not unknown in corporate relations. It just always makes me real uncomfortable when people assume that when a large corporation has told them they aren't going to do something that will cost them money/resources, that they'll really do it anyway. You'll typically get more heartache than not that way.

 

[taucias]

I've read elsewhere that there might be a chassis revision also implemented on this hardware http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=23003. So, does that mean the Euro revision has the new 65nm CELL too?