LAIR Thread - * Rules: post #469

[Konrad]

Sound 8.0?
I wonder where you could find a better soundtrack in 7.1 Audio in the current generation? Please correct me if I am wrong (But I know Iam not)

That review makes me more angry than sad. I would go as far as saying its complete BS, but I havent played the game yet.. so I dont.

 

[patsu]

I played the game until the bridge level (but failed the mission). Unfortunately, I am tied up right now. So I'll just give my partial feedback.

I now understand why the Lair scores are so spread out. It's mainly because of inconsistency. Those who picked out only the bad elements will rated it low, while those who only saw the good elements rated it high.

Playing the game felt like running an understaffed company. Within one level, you'll be ordered to perform different tasks abruptly before you can finish them. You'll have to abandon what you're doing immediately and get back to them later. If you're not careful, the enemies will reach the gate and you lose.

The control is very precise (which is why some liked it), but sometimes loses its precision when sudden movement, like bumping another dragon, is required (which is why some hated it). I heard there is a sensitivity control in the game, but I have not tried it yet. I can overcome this problem by choosing other ways to kill the dragons (e.g., burn them, or CQC them ).

The graphics is great sometimes and not so good at other times (clipping issues, occassional artifacts). The progressive mesh technology works great. Occassionally I can observe the terrain changes a _tiny_ bit as I approach it, which is kinda cool actually. But I guess it's not supposed to be visible.

The music is good but because the action is hectic (and I'm still learning the ropes), I didn't get to enjoy it as much. I will find opportunties to listen to the music again.

Some reviewers complained about not knowing where the objectives are or what to hit... it's not really a big issue. I can usually identify the targets within 3 seconds. They are probably distracted. Any uncertainty can be tested out quickly by flying towards the suspected targets/locations, or shooting some fireballs and listen to the narration.

Ground fighting is ok/no problem. The camera usually shows the side view of the dragon (good for attacking surrounding soldiers), but you'll need to adjust the camera using L1 if you are targeting a catapult or runaway rhinos some distance away.

At times, you can see the hundreds of ground soldiers chug (framerate drops). But this lasted only for an instance (There may be a "sweet spot" distance to reproduce this issue but I'm not sure since the dragon is constantly moving).

Close quarter dragon combat is ok, but I have not explored it enough. The first few fights are similar because the enemy dragons were slow, the last one I did was a little different. So the difficulty may increase over time.

I died twice while tearing down the lighthouse in the night level, without knowing what happened. I might have bumped too hard into the wall or something. There should be clearer feedback.

Water looks out of place at close up.

Will come back with more info once I finish the game.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

If they didn't, its a whole different ballgame

The charging thing was covered much earlier. I'll reread your post if you backtrack through the thread and catch up

 

[PatrickL]

Problem for Lair is taht a lot of reviews are similiar:
http://blog.wired.com/games/2007/08/review-fly-far-.html
So I still think that the game will sell well due to lack of choice but not because it stands out.

 

[patsu]

I would say that the review is not quite accurate. Dragons that can be targeted have a faint circular glow around them, so it's not too difficult to know which ones to shoot. They have different colors too (light blue for ice dragon and black for dark dragons).

Mission objectives are not clearly marked out, but after playing 4-5 levels, they are not that hard to find either. This is because the targets are magnified to show you how they look... and they are usually near the center of the screen once the magnified view goes away (so you don't have to turn and hunt for them).

SIXAXIS control for navigation works great but there is a lag when interpreting sudden movement (e.g., 180 degree turns or bumping dragons sideways). I don't understand how he can have trouble flying his dragon.

Nonetheless, I can agree with this statement:

So I still think that the game will sell well due to lack of choice but not because it stands out.

 

[Arwin]

Yes, typical gesture recognition takes place as soon as the gesture is finished. It would be great if it could take place as soon as it starts, but that is problematic for obvious reasons. Still, I think we'll move towards a situation where you can make more direct moves.

Pity to hear, patsu, that you don't think the game stands out. Or did I misinterpret that?

 

[aselto]

So I still think that the game will sell well due to lack of choice but not because it stands out.

I don't think the game will be smashing hit sales-wise for 2 reasons, PS3 owners didn't prove to be that active purchasers and there are/will be some PS3 games on the market (for example Heavenly Sword launches 8 days later), so I don't think PS3 gamers are that desperated to buy a 4.9 game.

 

[betan]

So I still think that the game will sell well due to lack of choice but not because it stands out.

I don't know how much this game will sell, but clearly PS3 owners are not in the habit of buying games due to lack of choice.

Patsu, can you convey some casual feedback when your family or friends try it? Julian was saying something like casuals favoring the controls in their play tests, so I'm curious.

 

[deepbrown]

"You can't corner or move with any precision in Lair. I missed the toro and thought that I could just turn around and go back to the beast, but my turn was so wide that by the time I was facing the right way, I was already over my foe. The only strategy was to go waaaaaaay out over the water"

uh did this guy play the game without knowing the basics? IGN touted how you could turn on a dime by flipping up the controller - and now they can't do it? Oh dear...I say review it again.

Plus that's the most divergent final score from individuals scores I've ever seen. I know it's not an average - but 4.9 compared to the average of 6.7? That's very hard to understand.

 

[Ben-Nice]

Plus that's the most divergent final score from individuals scores I've ever seen. I know it's not an average - but 4.9 compared to the average of 6.7? That's very hard to understand.

It's IGN. All they're reviews defy logic since none of the individual scores correlate to the final score. A game could get 5's in every category and they will give the game a 5.4 or vice versa and i'm not even being sarcastic .

 

[ihamoitc2005]

Consistent delay

SIXAXIS control for navigation works great but there is a lag when interpreting sudden movement (e.g., 180 degree turns or bumping dragons sideways). I don't understand how he can have trouble flying his dragon.

Nonetheless, I can agree with this statement:

There is a lag because you a rider of a dragon, not the actual dragon. F5 made statements that they put a delay for this because you are controlling a giant beast. I have done horse riding so I know there is always a little delay so I can understand why a dragon will have a delay. I think people think riding a dragon must be like driving a car. Unfortunately this is not so. Also, sudden movement in the air is not possible except for very tiny creatures. If you see bird fights, you will see they make great big swoops to fight, cant jerk easily.

I feel F5's mistake was that they did not put delay for everything. Fireball atack has not enough delay. So this makes it feel not consistent. Also people do not understand that sudden movement in air is very difficult.

 

[patsu]

Yes, typical gesture recognition takes place as soon as the gesture is finished. It would be great if it could take place as soon as it starts, but that is problematic for obvious reasons. Still, I think we'll move towards a situation where you can make more direct moves.

Let me repeat. The SIXAXIS control is _very_ precise in Lair. I can only think of 2 reasons why the reviewers couldn't control their dragons well.

* They missed their targets and flew too close to a wall or an obstacle (e.g., The mouths of the human face statues). The dragons will evade automatically when this happens. So you can't really force them to turn back at the last minute easily. You'll have to fly _away_ from the target and retry. The dragons do not fly like a plane to me (I'll have to try Warhawk since I bought it too).

* Sudden movement doesn't always work, but after some practice it is possible to do so. I think this is similar to some Wii game complains I read in the Wii thread.

Pity to hear, patsu, that you don't think the game stands out. Or did I misinterpret that?

I will answer your question after my rant below.

The game is reasonably fun but I can't finalize my comments yet until I completed it. The inconsistency in performance makes it a little hard to pin down the game. The first few levels felt abrupt because a sudden outbreak threw the player into the deep end right away. Then they had to perform multiple tasks at the same time. This is followed quickly by another twist. This is not your regular level-by-level FPS/TPS/RPG progression. You'll have to accept the game/story for what it is (You're experiencing the unexpected events as an Asylean)

So far I like the game given its flaws. The dragon flight is just as I expected. The combat is reasonbly fun but not madly fun. Please remember that I have not completed the game yet (Only at level 5, no pun intended ).

So I still think that the game will sell well due to lack of choice but not because it stands out.

The reason I agree with Patrick is because:
* The inconsistency will certainly split the opinion of the playerbase. So Lair's buzz may not help its sale (I interpreted the "stand out" part as Lair's buzz).
* The high points in the game is still reasonably fun (as in I will play it again). In the end, some people may feel compelled to buy it.

I don't know how much this game will sell, but clearly PS3 owners are not in the habit of buying games due to lack of choice.

Patsu, can you convey some casual feedback when your family or friends try it? Julian was saying something like casuals favoring the controls in their play tests, so I'm curious.

I have not tried it on them yet. At this point, I am pretty sure they will feel right at home with SIXAXIS given that they are comfortable with flOw and Super rub-a-dub. BTW, Super rub-a-dub is a good game. The reviewer who gave it 3/10 may have missed the point of gaming altogether (It's fun and that's all it matters).



EDIT:

There is a lag because you a rider of a dragon, not the actual dragon. F5 made statements that they put a delay for this because you are controlling a giant beast. I have done horse riding so I know there is always a little delay so I can understand why a dragon will have a delay. I think people think riding a dragon must be like driving a car. Unfortunately this is not so. Also, sudden movement in the air is not possible except for very tiny creatures. If you see bird fights, you will see they make great big swoops to fight, cant jerk easily.

I feel F5's mistake was that they did not put delay for everything. Fireball atack has not enough delay. So this makes it feel not consistent. Also people do not understand that sudden movement in air is very difficult.

Well I have only ridden a slow horse before so I can't relate it to dragon flight. I would say the control is not the issue at all. If they can fix:

* The nances in graphics (artifacts, occasional framedrops and some coarse-grained animation)

* More importantly, give the user more freedom in what they want to do in the war, rather then forcing them to experience war linearly (but abruptly). I have a feeling they did this to shorten testing and play balance... but I don't think play balance matters that much here. People want to free the dragon ! In such a game, any minor graphics issues would be irrelevant.

Then the score will be consistently higher. Much higher.

 

[ihamoitc2005]

Review

Let me repeat. The SIXAXIS control is _very_ precise in Lair. I can only think of 2 reasons why the reviewers couldn't control their dragons well.

* They missed their targets and flew too close to a wall or an obstacle (e.g., The mouths of the human face statues). The dragons will evade automatically when this happens. So you can't really force them to turn back at the last minute. You'll have to fly _away_ from the target and retry. This is why the dragon does not fly like a plane to me (contrary to some reviewers' notes).

* Sudden movement doesn't always work, but after some practice it is possible to do so. I think this is similar to some Wii game complains I read in the Wii thread.



I will answer your question after my rant below.

The game is reasonably fun but I can't finalize my comments yet until I completed it. The inconsistency in performance makes it a little hard to pin down the game. The first few levels felt abrupt because a sudden outbreak threw the player into the deep end right away. Then they had to perform multiple tasks at the same time. This is followed quickly by another twist. This is not your regular level-by-level FPS/TPS/RPG progression. You'll have to accept the game/story for what it is (You're experiencing the unexpected events as an Asylean)

So far I like the game given its flaws. The dragon flight is just as I expected. The combat is reasonbly fun but not madly fun. Please remember that I have not completed the game yet (Only at level 5, no pun intended ).



The reason I agree with Patrick is because:
* The inconsistency will certainly split the opinion of the playerbase. So Lair's buzz may not help its sale (I interpreted the "stand out" part as Lair's buzz).
* The high points in the game is still reasonably fun (as in I will play it again). In the end, some people may feel compelled to buy it.



I have not tried it on them yet. At this point, I am pretty sure they will feel right at home with SIXAXIS given that they are comfortable with flOw and Super rub-a-dub. BTW, Super rub-a-dub is a good game. The reviewer who gave it 3/10 may have missed the point of gaming altogether (It's fun and that's all it matters).

My friend, I think many Lair reviewers understand very well what is fun and how to use SIXAXIS. I will not say anything except that there is no coincidence in business. 4.9?

 

[Cheezdoodles]

It's IGN. All they're reviews defy logic since none of the individual scores correlate to the final score. A game could get 5's in every category and they will give the game a 5.4 or vice versa and i'm not even being sarcastic .

Yet IGN reviews are on average the review that gets closest to the average opinion on gamerankings.com

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I feel F5's mistake was that they did not put delay for everything. Fireball atack has not enough delay. So this makes it feel not consistent. Also people do not understand that sudden movement in air is very difficult.

I would say their mistake was making this choice. Realism should have been dropped for what gamers expect, which is immediate response. Designing in lag won't work, as gamers won't understand it intuitively, and you can't really explain it to them. At best you add a note in the instruction booklet, and who reads those?

Nice idea, but I think they should have considered how the gamers would have responded without any explanation why there's lag. Blind tests ought to have flagged that up if it's a common complaint.

 

[Ben-Nice]

Yet IGN reviews are on average the review that gets closest to the average opinion on gamerankings.com

So you've broken down every single site's reviews and compared them to the gamerankings average. You must have alot of time on your hands Either way there breakdown at the end of reviews suck. You can have 2 games. One scores better in every single individual category than another game yet has a lower final score. In what bizzaro world would that be a valid and acceptable way to do reviews?

 

[patsu]

My friend, I think many Lair reviewers understand very well what is fun and how to use SIXAXIS. I will not say anything except that there is no coincidence in business. 4.9?

It's not whether they know how to use SIXAXIS, it's whether they accept the way the dragon responds to them. During flight, this is very smooth and accurate (close to 100%). Doing 180 degree turn is 80-90% predictable for me. Bumping dragon is about 40-50% (I can get the dragon to "shift" about 70-80% of the time but I usually missed the target because of the large movement, so the effectiveness is about half-half).

I don't know what it is. I am not sure if it's intended delay. Or perhaps dragons don't like crashing into each other mid-flight ? I think only the larger dark dragons attempted to ram me but I need to double-check. I chose to fight dragons using claws and fireballs instead, so the flights and fights are pleasant.

4.9 ? I can see that if people focus largely on the negative points. I think the average score is somewhere around 6.2 at this moment.

 

[scooby_dooby]

My friend, I think many Lair reviewers understand very well what is fun and how to use SIXAXIS. I will not say anything except that there is no coincidence in business. 4.9?

Oh god, not the freakin conspiracy theory BS again...

I'm surprised LAIR scored this low really, I though the GFX alone would elevate it into the 8 range.

But I've always felt from watching videos, that the gameplay looked severely broken, and so in a way I'm not too surprised.

 

[patsu]

Oh god, not the freakin conspiracy theory BS again...

I'm surprised LAIR scored this low really, I though the GFX alone would elevate it into the 8 range.

But I've always felt from watching videos, that the gameplay looked severely broken, and so in a way I'm not too surprised.

In my half-opinion (because it's half done), I think they should have made this into a free roaming game, and have some very obvious objective counter/indicators to guide the player.

The linear, movie-like but abrupt progression at the beginning of the game probably killed a lot of enthusiasm (Okay, people who dislike this sort of things, don't join a startup company ).


EDIT: At this point, I will point the figure at the game design department. The graphics given so much activities is impressive.

 

[Cheezdoodles]

So you've broken down every single site's reviews and compared them to the gamerankings average. You must have alot of time on your hands Either way there breakdown at the end of reviews suck. You can have 2 games. One scores better in every single individual category than another game yet has a lower final score. In what bizzaro world would that be a valid and acceptable way to do reviews?

Not really, im just clever enough to press the link below the bolded text that says "STATISTICS", where every single sites review is compared to the gamerankings average, automatically.

Now, can everybody stop with the concpiracy theories? I'm absolutely amazed that people refuse to believe reviews, which is actual people playing games, but rather want to believe the hype machine, which is basically a marketing campaign. Thats right, your believing the commercial rather than opinions on the actual experience.

I don't see the xbox horde running around making up conspiracy theories about Blue Dragon flopping, and that it really is a AAA game, when its not.