LAIR Thread - * Rules: post #469

[patsu]

Am eager to see this in motion (How smooth do they transit/look when a dragon roams and "dive bomb" ?). This is the most important aspect for me. Whether the lighting is correct or not, the monsters are gorgeous ! The coastline and ocean reminds me of certain part of Highway 1 in California. I can almost smell the wind at that height I like the art direction and the game world so far.

The hundreds of soldiers still look dumb May be it's like certain "Romance of 3 Kingdom" hack-and-slash game when on foot.

The dev said the 2 competing civilizations were running out of food, but I think they ran out of women long time ago too. That's why everyone's p*ssed and at war

 

[Bagel seed]

I kind of like the way the colors are now. It's more of a water-colorish tone style.

 

[rounin]

Umh..I'm not sure your image prove anything. I'm sure any skilled artits can outdo the vast majority of games out there in a few hours with the proper tools.

Not to mention his image doesn't even look that good in the first place compared to the original LAIR screenshot.

After reading Shifty's analysis, I do agree that this game would be much better with self-shadowing.

 

[nAo]

I'm not saying Lair looks extremely good, everyone has differente tastes.
From a technology standpoint it's too early too judge it, the first videos that were shown in the past were indecent, I'm sure they can do much better than this.

 

[MechanizedDeath]

I don't understand why some people just want to tear this game apart.
Gears has this kind of grainy look all over it, I mean the entire game, and people said wow that's next gen.
While this game has more variety, it's not welcomed. I call it "double-standard". This game has been in development for quite awhile that means you cannot say it copied Gears. I feel there are a lot of insecurities in this thread.

You can predict 90% of the responses in a thread without having to read it. Just look at the username and ablib away. I think it looks nice, but also agree with comments about the lighting. But then again, I see no point in passing judgement before it's done.

Let's not forget, that most of these shots are old...like last Fall old. A lot of these were released as mag scans months back, including the one with the giant sea monster. If it wasn't amazing to you then, a simple change in image quality shouldn't change any of that now. But prejudices make all that a moot point anyway. PEACE.

 

[Laa-Yosh]

Umh..I'm not sure your image prove anything. I'm sure any skilled artits can outdo the vast majority of games out there in a few hours with the proper tools.

I'm a modeler, I'm not skilled at creating landscapes at all* - and that is what I actually wanted to show. Lair's landscapes and lighting have very little artistic value, look like they've been rushed, and all this is really strage from a game that has an AA level budget (I think Factor 5 talked about $15-20 million) and promotion. A team of skilled artists should produce imagery that's a lot more complex and pleasing to the eye.

From a technology standpoint it's too early too judge it, the first videos that were shown in the past were indecent, I'm sure they can do much better than this.

See, being a coder you can tell that there's not much on the technology side. Being an artist, I can tell that there isn't much on that side either - nice dragon models with pretty good source art (digitized maquettes as I've heard) but basically that's all.

So the questions that jump into my mind are, how can this happen to such a high profile title; and why do people still find it that amazing? If it's this easy to please the audience, then most of the effort going into the asset creation could be a simple waste of resources.


* That's more about texture work, lighting, shaders, general artistic talent - and only a bit of enviroment modeling.

 

[Laa-Yosh]

Not to mention his image doesn't even look that good in the first place compared to the original LAIR screenshot.

You seem to have missed two facts: I did this in just one hour, and Lair is admitted to cost $15-20 million... One would expect a little more difference between the two efforts.

Granted, I've used an off-the-shelf 3D package and Factor 5 had to write a rendering engine and some level building tool for it; but the work behind the source art and the lighting isn't that different.
The shots look like some rushed, incomplete test levels, so either they shouldn't release them at all, or if that's how they intend the final product to look like then it's time to reconsider their options.

 

[Bagel seed]

The shots look like some rushed, incomplete test levels, so either they shouldn't release them at all, or if that's how they intend the final product to look like then it's time to reconsider their options.

I think we should be happy that Sony is releasing any kind of screens or info about their first party games, since they're so tight-lipped about their stuff in the first place.

If these are actually rushed incomplete test levels, then the final product should be quite promising, since these screens are from at least back as early as Fall, as someone else mentioned in this thread.

You seem to have missed two facts: I did this in just one hour, and Lair is admitted to cost $15-20 million... One would expect a little more difference between the two efforts.

I won't argue the differences between the screens, but it's kind of weird how you would compare your offline rendering skills to an in-game screen generated by a real-time engine.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I'm a modeler, I'm not skilled at creating landscapes at all* - and that is what I actually wanted to show. Lair's landscapes and lighting have very little artistic value, look like they've been rushed, and all this is really strage from a game that has an AA level budget (I think Factor 5 talked about $15-20 million) and promotion. A team of skilled artists should produce imagery that's a lot more complex and pleasing to the eye.

I didn't understand what you were getting at, but with this explanation, you've got a point. Weren't we told Lair would have ground details every 2 square meteres or somesuch? I'm pretty sure there was a boast about the amount of detail they had. And yet in these pics, that detail is just a bump in a normal map! Now it could be that these are supposed to be desolate environments. After all, that's the premise of the game. They are extremely desolate though. Not even an occassional dead tree. If it's a conscious decision to make the world look barren, they need to rethink and add some variety. Because utterly barren makes for quite a dull looking place.

 

[Ben-Nice]

You seem to have missed two facts: I did this in just one hour, and Lair is admitted to cost $15-20 million... One would expect a little more difference between the two efforts.

Granted, I've used an off-the-shelf 3D package and Factor 5 had to write a rendering engine and some level building tool for it; but the work behind the source art and the lighting isn't that different.
The shots look like some rushed, incomplete test levels, so either they shouldn't release them at all, or if that's how they intend the final product to look like then it's time to reconsider their options.

What in your opinion ARE high quality looking games that are out or are coming out that you have seen? I'm not saying these LAIR screens are awesome but I'm not sure what your comparing them too. If these are bad and terrible then what do you consider "good"?

 

[Shifty Geezer]

If these are actually rushed incomplete test levels, then the final product should be quite promising, since these screens are from at least back as early as Fall, as someone else mentioned in this thread.

That's always the case, and everyone appreciates things improve over time. Until the game is released, we discuss the media for the current builds we say and observe the pro's and con's of development. Only if someone says 'this game looks rubbish now so I won't buy it' does the notion 'it'll likely improve before release' need to be raised.

 

[rounin]

You seem to have missed two facts: I did this in just one hour, and Lair is admitted to cost $15-20 million... One would expect a little more difference between the two efforts.

Granted, I've used an off-the-shelf 3D package and Factor 5 had to write a rendering engine and some level building tool for it; but the work behind the source art and the lighting isn't that different.
The shots look like some rushed, incomplete test levels, so either they shouldn't release them at all, or if that's how they intend the final product to look like then it's time to reconsider their options.

Frankly, your image was missing quite a few details that were in the original and had really failed to prove any of your intended points. For instance, they at least had different "layers" on their little islands, their water looks more realistic, and the "foam" or feedback effect that the water got from the surrounding islands looks much better than yours. In other words, I felt that if you had points to make, you should have just saved yourself that hour.

Without knowing the thorough back story behind this whole game, I think some of the art is going to be hard to judge as well. For instance, I notice most of the rocks have multiple "layers", possibly alluring to drops in ocean level, a trait that could possibly have relation to the story. They same goes for the people requesting more color - the story I believe is that apart from a small area in the game world, no vegetation can grow.

Thats not to say theres not a lot to criticize about the game, as the fire effect that we saw last year was disappointing, and like I mentioned, the self-shadowing needs a lot of work. But the reasons that a lot of people are impressed by these "new" (I'm not sure anymore, since someone said these are actually old) screenshots are that they show a vast improvement in scale over what we previously saw, they show something other than the bridge, and they show improvements over the dragons with segmented tails that we previously saw. The barren land could be made better though, for instance, with extra rocks here and there and if 'sea' level theory is correct, maybe a dead reef somewhere.

Overall, the game seems to give off an aura of freshness (not often done) for both the consumers and the developers and the approach they took. Technology-wise, I'm not sure what is involved, but the models look to be detailed enough and their 'HDR' lighting looks to be OK. Theres criticisms on the poly-count of the big monsters, but from what I can see, its acceptable - we're looking at them from quite far away and I think a lot of this depends on the progressive mesh system that they're trying out (and improving as well I think, judging from previous versus recent screenshots).

And after typing all that, I think I'll have my morning tea now. Writing that much makes me feel like Acert.

 

[Bagel seed]

That's always the case, and everyone appreciates things improve over time. Until the game is released, we discuss the media for the current builds we say and observe the pro's and con's of development. Only if someone says 'this game looks rubbish now so I won't buy it' does the notion 'it'll likely improve before release' need to be raised.

I agree that's always the case. I guess just prefer to speak about things like this in a positive manner, and giving the developer the benefit of the doubt. In this case, it's Factor 5, so we should give them a little credit in terms of graphics for the final product. Alot of us sit on the sidelines, not actually developing the games we discuss about, so we don't really know the actual timelines and builds for released media. It's just speculation on our part on how much further a game could improve. So that's why I usually take a glass-half full approach. Anyways, just my preference.

 

[Crossbar]

So the questions that jump into my mind are, how can this happen to such a high profile title; and why do people still find it that amazing? If it's this easy to please the audience, then most of the effort going into the asset creation could be a simple waste of resources.

Your comment reminds me of a friend of mine who is a senior film director/producer, he was amazed that Titanic became such a huge success, because he really thought it was such a crappy movie. He was pissed at me because I thought it was decent.

 

[Laa-Yosh]

What in your opinion ARE high quality looking games that are out or are coming out that you have seen? I'm not saying these LAIR screens are awesome but I'm not sure what your comparing them too. If these are bad and terrible then what do you consider "good"?

Epic's games have a high level of polish and artistic value, even if you could argue with their overly colorful palette in UT3 or the gritty look of Gears - those are questions of taste and style, but the effort and the quality is unqestionable. Lair landscapes look procedural and computer generated, Gears buildings and cities are hand-crafted and painted, and painstakingly detailed.

Other nice and quality looking games are practically everything from the AA Square games (FFXII is simply unbelievable, even if the style is again a matter of personal preference), Motorstorm's lighting and landscapes are very good too. Mass Effect has nice characters and artificial enviroments, though I'm not that sure about the landscapes. Bioshock is again very nice with a refreshingly different and stylized art style. GTHD has some very nice cars and lighting but the enviroments aren't that good with all the static photo-textured backgrounds.

Half-life 2 had some amazing looking cities and indoor enviroments too, but natural landscapes were lacking and characters had far too many photo-textures as well. I still don't like The Darkness that much even though it's improving; Halo3 is again a mixed bag with some of the original E3 teaser imagery looking quite OK and some of the other stuff quite mediocre. I'm not such a big fan of Lost Planet (although explosions are amazing but that's not related to the artwork, more to the effects coders) and DMC4, or Splinter Cell and GRAW either but they're OK too.

Satisfied?

 

[Laa-Yosh]

Your comment reminds me of a friend of mine who is a senior film director/producer, he was amazed that Titanic became such a huge success, because he really thought it was such a crappy movie. He was pissed at me because I thought it was decent.

I'm not criticizing the story or the gameplay; Lair might deliver on those and become a success.
But your analogy just doesn't make sense here.

 

[Laa-Yosh]

Frankly...

Frankly, I think that a lot of people have had huge expectations of Lair, that it'd be the ultimate demonstration of PS3's superiority, and now that it looks like a major disappointment in its current form, they refuse to accept this and try to shoot any messangers instead.

Case in point: you arguing about a bunch of irrelevant details, while failing to recognize that my image shares the most important underlying problems with Lair: lame lighting, overdone normal mapping, unnatural ground and water textures, overuse of speculars and bloom, and so on.

 

[Crossbar]

I'm not criticizing the story or the gameplay; Lair might deliver on those and become a success.
But your analogy just doesn't make sense here.

I thought you may have a more critical eye than rest of us, just like he had. You are critical to some graphic details in some pictures because you work with that stuff, he was critical to a film because he worked with that kind of stuff. You see stuff the average joe does not see, because he may be overwelmed by other impressions.

 

[scooby_dooby]

The new screens look alot better, the coloursheme is so much nicer, and some really nice details are coming through for the dragon's.

Still nowhere near the original dragon renders, but it's starting to look like a game I'd like to play.

 

[patsu]

I'm a modeler, I'm not skilled at creating landscapes at all* - and that is what I actually wanted to show. Lair's landscapes and lighting have very little artistic value, look like they've been rushed, and all this is really strage from a game that has an AA level budget (I think Factor 5 talked about $15-20 million) and promotion. A team of skilled artists should produce imagery that's a lot more complex and pleasing to the eye.

I'm not sure about "having very little artistic value", the landscape looks good enough to me. In my nooby eyes, they look better than the Oblivion landscape, without the mods. Because of the bird's eye view, the distance can be huge too ?

Some pointed out problems in the lighting but to me I can appreciate the "art".

See, being a coder you can tell that there's not much on the technology side. Being an artist, I can tell that there isn't much on that side either - nice dragon models with pretty good source art (digitized maquettes as I've heard) but basically that's all.

Can someone explain to me what was presented in SIGGRAPH 2006 in the Lair session ? I tried google and forum search but couldn't find the slides or informative blurb.

So the questions that jump into my mind are, how can this happen to such a high profile title; and why do people still find it that amazing? If it's this easy to please the audience, then most of the effort going into the asset creation could be a simple waste of resources.

* That's more about texture work, lighting, shaders, general artistic talent - and only a bit of enviroment modeling.

Perhaps because you're focusing too much at the landscape (or I'm artistically challenged, which is possible) ?

So far, I like the imagination, the elegant monster designs, the character design (except for the soldiers wearing torned stockings and ostrich feathers), the architecture, the waters, and the sense of scale, freedom and how everything is put seamlessly together in the game so far (from the screens). In some of the shots, you can even see faraway objects in the sky (more dragons ?)

You seem to have missed two facts: I did this in just one hour, and Lair is admitted to cost $15-20 million... One would expect a little more difference between the two efforts.

I'm not sure. Is it really that easy ? Landscape is just one part of the whole environment. And among that, you only did the coast. I still can't see your point. The image you've done up quickly is far from what's in the Lair screenshot. In addition, what about the architecture and the other designs ?

EDIT: We also have not seen other levels yet (ice, jungle and what not).