WOW 360 on HDTV for the first time

[Legend]

anybody else thought the title was about World of Warcraft? ;p

on topic:
I am saving my jump from a 480i to 1080p. take about a leap.

 

[kyleb]

Depending on how big of a display you get and how close you will be sitting to it, quite likely more of a leap then your eyes will ever be able to see.

 

[pipo]

I'm perfectly happy with my 720p set. The HD cable boxes are available now over here, and guess what, no 1080p support.

I don't see it happening in Europe any time soon...

Back on topic - yup, HD does make a big difference.

 

[Urian]

I have a 360 with Oblivion, PGR3 and Perfect Dark Zero but I don´t have enough money for an HDTV.

 

[Type_Raver]

You mean the ones that embed into the carpeting and precariously tip the TV on end while you instantaneously calculate the damage soon to be caused by slamming your TV straight down into the floor? (Of course, my cat-like reflexes take over and I always save the tv at the last moment...)

I "laughed out loud" at this, i think its my tired state due to the world cup along with my active imagination.

Now to say something to make this post stick and keep it on topic...

Ive seen images of the Kameo on a dell 2405 LCD and it does look crisp and vivid. Shame all the shops ive been to use SDTVs to demo Hi def' games, actually, i saw king kong on a HD ready LCD TV. I think its immersive and mesmerizing the first time you see it. We've been used to standard def' games for ages in its like "Whoa", the first time you see it (a hi def' game) in action.

 

[Fox5]

I "laughed out loud" at this, i think its my tired state due to the world cup along with my active imagination.

Now to say something to make this post stick and keep it on topic...

Ive seen images of the Kameo on a dell 2405 LCD and it does look crisp and vivid. Shame all the shops ive been to use SDTVs to demo Hi def' games, actually, i saw king kong on a HD ready LCD TV. I think its immersive and mesmerizing the first time you see it. We've been used to standard def' games for ages in its like "Whoa", the first time you see it (a hi def' game) in action.

It's like playing a PC or Dreamcast game! (hey, I was disappointed going from dreamcast to the current gen of systems)

Anyhow, I'll probably be picking up a refurbished philips HDTV. Can get a 480P/1080i capable one for $370 (30" wide screen), which is decent. Of course, I'd prefer 720P, but I wasn't able to repair the 34" monivision I found (blew a transformer), and an actual 720P set is much more expensive. Besides, 480p widescreen is all the Wii will be doing, and my xbox 360 can be happen being scaled/downscaled to 1080i. (I know it's technically considered upscaling, but since the scaling can't add more information and can in fact subtract some going from progressive to interlaced, I'd call it downscaling, or perhaps just scaling for 30fps games) Oh wait, I do not have an xbox 360, but if I did, I'd have to be happy with 1080i (over 480i) or just use my 19" LCD monitor to play it at 720p.

 

[Moloch]

I played PGR3 on my friend's today and thought it looked pretty good far away, but up close I wasn't impressed, in terms of and clarity, maybe cuz it's so big though?

The lightning is really impression and the car models are pretty good, but it didn't wow me.
edit- duh.. it's cuz the damn thing only renders at 1024x600.

 

[mckmas8808]

I played PGR3 on my friend's today and thought it looked pretty good far away, but up close I wasn't impressed, in terms of and clarity, maybe cuz it's so big though?

The lightning is really impression and the car models are pretty good, but it didn't wow me.
edit- duh.. it's cuz the damn thing only renders at 1024x600.

What size is the TV?

 

[TheChefO]

I played PGR3 on my friend's today and thought it looked pretty good far away, but up close I wasn't impressed, in terms of and clarity, maybe cuz it's so big though?

The lightning is really impression and the car models are pretty good, but it didn't wow me.
edit- duh.. it's cuz the damn thing only renders at 1024x600.

What was the native res on his tv?

 

[Moloch]

What size is the TV?

It's a 42" phillips ambilight lcd model with 1366x768 native.
My edit makes my post make a lot more sense since PGR 3 is rendered at 1024x600 so of course it will have a ton of jaggies.
But even with the low res up close shouldn't it be pretty clear up close?
I could see noise I close, like when watching tv.
Basically I wanna know why a computer monitor is so much clearer looking regaredless of res.
He does have the XB360 set at 1080i, so does the XB upscale 1024x600 to 1080i and then his tv has to deinterlace it and scale it to the native res?
Would setting it to 720P clear it up since it's closer to the native res?

 

[TheChefO]

It's a 42" phillips ambilight lcd model with 1366x768 native.
My edit makes my post make a lot more sense since PGR 3 is rendered at 1024x600 so of course it will have a ton of jaggies.
But even with the low res up close shouldn't it be pretty clear up close?
I could see noise I close, like when watching tv.
Basically I wanna know why a computer monitor is so much clearer looking regaredless of res.
He does have the XB360 set at 1080i, so does the XB upscale 1024x600 to 1080i and then his tv has to deinterlace it and scale it to the native res?
Would setting it to 720P clear it up since it's closer to the native res?

I would think with his tv setting up at 720 would be better as then the game is not up sampled - down sampled - upsampled. Some here don't believe this scaling to be too big a deal though so I guess it's all just personal opinion.

In my opinion I try to keep this scaling at a minimum as it brings in certain artifacts as you mention. This is one of the primary reasons I stuck with projection and swapped my xga out for a 720 native model.

 

[kyleb]

It's a 42" phillips ambilight lcd model with 1366x768 native.
My edit makes my post make a lot more sense since PGR 3 is rendered at 1024x600 so of course it will have a ton of jaggies.

It would have more obvious jaggies if it was rendered ant output at that 1366x768 natively rather than being upscaled from 1024x600 with 2xAA as you saw it.

I would think with his tv setting up at 720 would be better as then the game is not up sampled - down sampled - upsampled. Some here don't believe this scaling to be too big a deal though so I guess it's all just personal opinion.

Again, it isn't just a matter of person opinion but rather the difference between you misunderstanding scaling as all one big thing and passing it off as bad while others of us understand enough to know better.

 

[pegisys]

It would have more obvious jaggies if it was rendered ant output at that 1366x768 natively rather than being upscaled from 1024x600 with 2xAA as you saw it.

well the jaggies would be bigger when upscaled making them more noticable, it also depends on the scaler, PC lcd monitor's scaler results are quite bad compared to letting the GPU to do scaling

 

[Moloch]

I would think with his tv setting up at 720 would be better as then the game is not up sampled - down sampled - upsampled. Some here don't believe this scaling to be too big a deal though so I guess it's all just personal opinion.

In my opinion I try to keep this scaling at a minimum as it brings in certain artifacts as you mention. This is one of the primary reasons I stuck with projection and swapped my xga out for a 720 native model.

Well I'll have to try it next time I go over there.
He played some of the condemned demo too, I thought that looked good in a doom 3 style
One thing that I didn't like about his tv is that I couldn't get a good black level out of it, I could lower the brightness but it still was weak compared to a good crt.

 

[TheChefO]

Again, it isn't just a matter of person opinion but rather the difference between you misunderstanding scaling as all one big thing and passing it off as bad while others of us understand enough to know better.

If you went back and looked at my original thread you would clearly see that I differentiate upscaling with downscaling. All things being equal, upscaling is never as good as native res. But also in my opinion, downscaling does not always equal better image. Yes I understand the concept of "supersampling". But I also understand the concept of image quality. When that "supersampling" is not comprised of a sufficient higher resolution which is then scaled to the target resolution, artifacts are introduced to the image. The most obvious are on straight diagonal angles which originally would have a predictable pattern and smooth edge when "supersampled" at odd resolutions introduce odd "jumps" in the diagonal line that are not there in the native res. I can't post images here to illustrate the point so forgive me if this illustration is not clear enough.

It would have more obvious jaggies if it was rendered ant output at that 1366x768 natively rather than being upscaled from 1024x600 with 2xAA as you saw it.

Anyone with a native 720 display out there and a 360? Ok try this experiment:
Run pgr3 on your system. take note.
Run any other game that is 720 native. take note.

Which one has more obvious jaggies? Please get back with us and share your opinion.

 

[kyleb]

If you went back and looked at my original thread you would clearly see that I differentiate upscaling with downscaling. All things being equal, upscaling is never as good as native res. But also in my opinion, downscaling does not always equal better image. Yes I understand the concept of "supersampling". But I also understand the concept of image quality. When that "supersampling" is not comprised of a sufficient higher resolution which is then scaled to the target resolution, artifacts are introduced to the image. The most obvious are on straight diagonal angles which originally would have a predictable pattern and smooth edge when "supersampled" at odd resolutions introduce odd "jumps" in the diagonal line that are not there in the native res.

Only when you aren't using anything better than point sampling.

I can't post images here to illustrate the point so forgive me if this illustration is not clear enough.

I can't forgive you here as the 360s internal scalier and any HDTV built in scaler does use notably better that point sampling, making your illustration irrelevant. But I am curius to hear what excuse you have for claiming not to be able to post examples.

Anyone with a native 720 display out there and a 360? Ok try this experiment:
Run pgr3 on your system. take note.
Run any other game that is 720 native. take note.

Which one has more obvious jaggies? Please get back with us and share your opinion.

Better yet, just take CoD2 on the 360 and run it at 720p where it renders at 1280x720 with no AA and then switch it down to 480p where it renders at 640x480 with 4xAA. Which one has obvious jaggies? The 720p native one as it doesn't have any AA.

 

[TheChefO]

For the sake of the thread, I will merely state this advice: Anyone interested in purchasing an HDTV with Gaming as a primary purpose, be sure to take the native resolution of the display into account for what console you intend to purchase.

In most cases, I would assume both ps3 and 360 games will be rendered internally at 720p.

With this knowledge, your best bet would be to get a native 720p display. It will scale images above 720 (1080i/p) down to the native res which for most media will look great. Native 720p content will obviously look great. And dvd's scaled up from 480p look pretty good too. Remember live content (movies etc) scales much better than computer generated content (games).

Difficulties in finding a native res 720 display are another issue though! :smile:

 

[kyleb]

Finding a TV that accepts and scales well with all the resolutions you will be using is far more important than fixating on the resolution of any particular source. Besides, many TVs, 720p native or otherwise will still scale the image a bit to correct for over scan without any options to bypass that features, so even if you do have a 720p source and a 720pdisplay, your image may still turn out scaled anyway.

Beyond the those issues; anything over a given resolution for a particular seating distance completely worthless because our eyes can only resolve so much.. Yet another important factor in considering displays is the issue of "screen door effect"; when you sit too close to a particular display and can see separation between the pixels as if you are viewing the image though a screen door. However, that space between varies by various technologies and modes rather than being directly dependent on the native resolution.

Aside from all that is the fact overall image quality is dependent on are many factors aside from resolution. To exemplify this, consider which you would rather have, a 480i color TV or a 1080p black and white TV. Not that you will ever find a 1080p black and white TV, but you will find plenty of higher resolution displays that are inherently inferior to certain lower resolution displays in every way but that native resolution.

So while you can buy a TV with focus on the idea that you will be mainly using a particular resolution along with a general aversion to any scaling and come out pleased with your results; that reasoning is far from good advice.

 

[Moloch]

Speaking of overscan, my friend's tv has a shitload of it.
You can adjust the position of the picture with the remote and watching tv programs you can see there's a bit of stuff you miss out on.
kinda wierd right?

 

[kyleb]

That is done becuase brocasts often has crap along the edges which no one would want to see.