Predict: The Next Generation Console Tech

[patsu]

Probably similar to RSX's terms and PowerVR one ? Plus professional services to customize for Playstation use.

That patent for using 2 GPUs may be applicable for b/c if old code is "plonked" in a nextnextgen run-time ?

I so hope to see Last of Us on the new box. So much art and software has gone into it and other superb titles this gen. What a waste !

 

[bgassassin]

I'm assuming bgassassin's looking at paper specs that have significant architectural similarities, hence on paper Orbis should beat Durango. Let's say his sources have told him both are 8 core Jaguars at 2 GHz, 8800 type GPUs, one at 1.2 TFlops and one at 1.8 TFlop (apple to apple comparison), one with 100 GB/s BW and one with 200 GB/s BW. That would point to the second machine being the more powerful, and so comments that there's not much between the machines would be hard to reconcile. At which point, you'd want an explanation, and bg's asking if it could be dev tools. I don't think he'd ask his question if there wasn't good reason to see the hardwares as comparable. If the answer to his question is 'no', then he knows either the development comments are wrong, or the hardware specs he's seeing are wrong, or there's more to the machines than the specs are saying.

This would be a very good explanation. When I got the vague specs on Xbox 3 last year it was hard to see where the "beast" comment was justified and how the two were as comparable as I was hearing so I wanted to give it more time. And now getting more details, I'm still not seeing it. And for the most part, the hardware does seem very close to being "apples to apples" as opposed to the current gen.

 

[Carl B]

Probably similar to RSX's terms and PowerVR one ? Plus professional services to customize for Playstation use.

Those were per-unit licensing though, right? Who's fabbing the PS4 chips - I think that's where we're going to start seeing some additional variables in pricing come into play. Is it going to be Global Foundries, or is Sony going to be able to use their usual partner fabs? With x86 architectures, this stuff can get tricky.

 

[anexanhume]

This would be a very good explanation. When I got the vague specs on Xbox 3 last year it was hard to see where the "beast" comment was justified and how the two were as comparable as I was hearing so I wanted to give it more time. And now getting more details, I'm still not seeing it. And for the most part, the hardware does seem very close to being "apples to apples" as opposed to the current gen.

The homogeneity is a positive thing to me as it should keep dev costs and schedules in check as it becomes easier to port. Hopefully that's a more positive environment moving forward.

 

[patsu]

I can't afford to play at home anymore. For me, the ability for devs to downport to mobile hardware is as important as scaling stuff to high end territory. I sure hope someone in the industry are thinking about it.

 

[liquidboy]

Please don't shoot me down with this question...

With all these rumours of specs for Durango flying around.. is it possible there are 2 SDKs for Xbox..

1. Surface Xbox (accompanying tablet to the Xbox or a gaming tablet that can run Xbox games)
2. Xbox Console


And understandably each sdk is targeted to a specific HW setup, and the Surface Xbox HW is understandably a subset of the Xbox console HW?

That's what I'm hearing may be going on ..

Btw this is similar to what happens when developing for Windows vs Windows Phone at the moment...

 

[Carl B]

Please don't shoot me down with this question...

With all these rumours of specs for Durango flying around.. is it possible there are 2 SDKs for Xbox..

1. Surface Xbox (accompanying tablet to the Xbox or a gaming tablet that can run Xbox games)
2. Xbox Console


And understandably each sdk is targeted to a specific HW setup, and the Surface Xbox HW is understandably a subset of the Xbox console HW?

That's what I'm hearing may be going on ..

Btw this is similar to what happens when developing for Windows vs Windows Phone at the moment...

There could certainly be down-rezzed versions of the same IPs set to be able to play on Surface tablets (or whatever other conforming Windows devices) once purchased, whether for the 720 or otherwise. If there's one theme to believe in going forward, believe in the idea of IP mobility/portability.

Completely plausible. That's different than it being a "subset" of the same hardware in Durango, but you get the idea.

 

[admiral_awesome]

Yes, of course that's possible - there is nothing to clarify or expound upon. This was the entire story of the PS3 at its launch. Since then, however, Sony has put a ton of effort into improving tools, to the point where I would doubt there remains much functional disparity heading into this next generation. Certainly not the gap that existed with last gen at least.

If I remember correctly some very capable guys have been working on Playstation Edge (debugger, profiler, etc.). I read a few presentation from GDC 07 which looked quite promising and if that team still works for Sony including the ICE team I think Sony might not be far behind MS. I don't know about MS prices but for Sony:

PS3 DevKit: €1,700
PS3 TestKit: €900

 

[patsu]

Please don't shoot me down with this question...

With all these rumours of specs for Durango flying around.. is it possible there are 2 SDKs for Xbox..

1. Surface Xbox (accompanying tablet to the Xbox or a gaming tablet that can run Xbox games)
2. Xbox Console


And understandably each sdk is targeted to a specific HW setup, and the Surface Xbox HW is understandably a subset of the Xbox console HW?

That's what I'm hearing may be going on ..

Btw this is similar to what happens when developing for Windows vs Windows Phone at the moment...

It should be similar to iOS, Android and Playstation development at the SDK level. At the workflow level, it's probably more complex. At the design level, the mobile and home console game design may be so different that they become 2 different projects.

But there are some games that will do well on both portable and home consoles.

 

[Carl B]

If I remember correctly some very capable guys have been working on Playstation Edge (debugger, profiler, etc.). I read a few presentation from GDC 07 which looked quite promising and if that team still works for Sony including the ICE team I think Sony might not be far behind MS.

No doubt. The back half of my post speaks to as much, as does ERP's own post (complete with experience), and there are numerous threads through the years on this forum dedicated to the advancement of Sony's developer tools. But, to the theme of bgassassin's question as to whether it was a legitimate potential differentiator... that was more what it was about in my mind in the context of Aegies' (whoever that is) supposed points; the idea that terrible tools could cripple performance yielded.

 

[McHuj]

Eurogamer Article on Orbis

8 Core Jaguar
18 CU's @ 800 MHz
+ Some special Compute Unit
4 GB GDDR5

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/df-hardware-orbis-unmasked-what-to-expect-from-next-gen-console

 

[Alexct]

So the 1.8 and 1.2 numbers are close to right and the secret sauce isn't some wunderkind. That's what made sense so I'm not surprised to hear it.

More I read these numbers the more I think they are wrong or if true that there is no "secret sauce" in the next xbox and that MS is simply focusing on a less powerful console and economic.
Why MS would have to spend a lot of money in customization(as some rumors claim) to increase the performance of a GPU so "weak" when they simply could have asked from the beginning to AMD a better GPU

 

[admiral_awesome]

Eurogamer Article on Orbis

8 Core Jaguar
18 CU's @ 800 MHz
+ Some special Compute Unit
4 GB GDDR5

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/df-hardware-orbis-unmasked-what-to-expect-from-next-gen-console

Thanks for the link. I hoped for 4 Steamrollers but it really looks like that the RAM (bandwidth versus amount) and the special/custom elements decide which console is "better".

 

[JasonLD]

Eurogamer Article on Orbis

8 Core Jaguar
18 CU's @ 800 MHz
+ Some special Compute Unit
4 GB GDDR5

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/df-hardware-orbis-unmasked-what-to-expect-from-next-gen-console

Close to what we expected except it has 8 core CPU. Interesting.

 

[Hecatoncheires]

8 Core Jaguar would mean a single die for CPU and GPU.
4GB GDDR5 would mean no 2.5D stacking.
According to Leadbetter the "special sauce" is nothing else than a couple of shaders that are dedicated to GPGPU.

 

[Bagel seed]

If true then it seems really by the numbers. No need for TSV research and such.

 

[anexanhume]

More I read these numbers the more I think they are wrong or if true that there is no "secret sauce" in the next xbox and that MS is simply focusing on a less powerful console and economic.
Why MS would have to spend a lot of money in customization(as some rumors claim) to increase the performance of a GPU so "weak" when they simply could have asked from the beginning to AMD a better GPU

Personally I feel that that "secret sauce" is intended to be forward thinking compute circuitry. Whether that has to do with lighting, SVO or whatever, I think that's what's going on. It was distinct enough from the GCN2 architecture that it made sense to split the circuitry off rather than customize (and perhaps encumber) the entirety of the 12 CUs.

Close to what we expected except it has 8 core CPU. Interesting.

It's a complete regurgitation of the most accepted rumors here on B3D. Which one of you wrote it?

 

[Bagel seed]

It's a complete regurgitation of the most accepted rumors here on B3D. Which one of you wrote it?

Yeah it does seem like a complete regurgitation but that would make sense if all the rumors we toss back and forth are true.

Dunno, I'm still holding out for some magic pixie dust in the final kits

 

[JasonLD]

Hopefully it has dedicated DSP via Cell, with PS3 compatibility to boot. With modest SoC, seems possible.

 

[McHuj]

About the special compute unit, I wonder if its possible (or useful) to take a block of a couple of CU's and give them access/coherency with the L2 caches like a CPU core.

Even 2 CU's @ 800 MHz would give you about ~200 gigaflops of compute power. It's basically a vector unit, but the same ISA as a GPU.