Predict: The Next Generation Console Tech

[jonabbey]

For the beta kits. I gather they'll go for Kaveri with Steamroller cores in the end, and that'll have first HSA and DDR4 support apparently.

From what I've read, the Kaveri/Steamroller chips will be dodgy for a 2013 release, but maybe that doesn't apply so much for a bespoke console model?

 

[Helmore]

The two are very different display technologies.
Occulus Rift is using a huge LCD screen (bad image quality, but cost advantage and very immersive FOV), while Sony uses a pair of OLED displays (expensive and lower FOV, but amazing image quality). I would assume they would add the Move sensor method and get a perfect 1:1 mapping of the head. Occulus Rift doesn't have position tracking as far as I know, just the angle. That's one of the reason people get headaches with VR, you move your head position and the view remains static, then the brain doesn't understand. The lag is also a major issue for any VR technology, I don't know if they can solve that.

That lag is apparently what Occulus Rift seems to have solved if you believe the hands-ons. Just take this one for example:http://techreport.com/news/24211/oculus-rift-is-freaking-amazing
I trust TechReport to be reliable in their reporting and they seem pretty amazed by it.

I don't think this topic should be discussed in this thread though, as I don't think it's realistic to expect VR glasses in any of the next gen consoles. Maybe the neXtneXtBox or the PS5....

From what I've read, the Kaveri/Steamroller chips will be dodgy for a 2013 release, but maybe that doesn't apply so much for a bespoke console model?

According to AMD we should still expect Steamroller based chips before the end of the year.

 

[upnorthsox]

Raytracing hardware will not be in any of the two consoles.

How about GI?

 

[Bagel seed]

From what I've read, the Kaveri/Steamroller chips will be dodgy for a 2013 release, but maybe that doesn't apply so much for a bespoke console model?

Well Sony being Sony may decide it's worth to wait for it and launch in 2014. But AMD slides seem to say Kaveri will be in the latter half of this year so who knows.

 

[Proelite]

How about GI?

That was already in PS3 / Xbox 360.

 

[anexanhume]

Kaveri/Steamroller doesn't fit the story of an integrated APU with a 1.8TF GPU.

 

[jonabbey]

Well Sony being Sony may decide it's worth to wait for it and launch in 2014. But AMD slides seem to say Kaveri will be in the latter half of this year so who knows.

Right. This article

http://www.extremetech.com/computin...i-will-fully-share-memory-between-cpu-and-gpu

sounds like a more reasonable implementation of the 'blitter' / better FLOPS thing that people have been tossing around MS's solution. I wonder if Sony might not base their work around Trinity while MS goes for something closer to Kaveri.

 

[liquidboy]

It's only partly true the efficiently statement comes from the fact that the cost is proportional to the number of rays which is proportional to the number of screen pixels.
Vs Rasterization where you have to take depth complexity into account.

However that ignores the fact that the cost of determining ray intersections is dependent on the cost of walking whatever data structure your scene graph is using down to the triangle, so it's also proportional to somewhere around LogN of the triangle count.

Raterizers exploit spacial coherence incredibly effectively, and In practice with early Z and rough depth sorting, it is very hard for a Raytracer to approach rasterization speeds for a first hit even at totally stupid resolutions.

very true ... its hard to justify raytracing when its all theoretical and the solutions im talking about is only in patents ...

http://www.google.com/patents/US813...a=X&ei=bUv4UMiEBYzMkgW66YCIBw&ved=0CDYQ6AEwAQ


I'm not hear to argue if RayTracing has made it into Xbox next, im just hypothesizing that if it has it will be the same as which is described in the several patents IBM/MS have ..

And its in those that patents you find answers to all spatial data structure, Primitive Data Structure and how these spatial trees are processed..

I really don't care either way because if it hasn't made it in, game engines will find a way to fake RayTracing .. and if it has been solved by MS and included we have a HW solution for RayTracing..

 

[Bagel seed]

Kaveri/Steamroller doesn't fit the story of an integrated APU with a 1.8TF GPU.

FWIW apparently Kaveri prototypes have 7750Ms in them which are like 0.6 TF.

Also I don't know how feasible a 1.8TF GPU can be rammed into an APU but I've always believed they'll go with APU + GPU in the end anyways.

 

[liquidboy]

What is your rationale for this claim?



Ray tracing is new?

Im not going to guess if MS have included ray tracing into Xbox next, but if it did then it would be the same as identified in these patents

http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1694608&postcount=18700


Also the claims around RayTracing, etc. You can hear in these interviews from Corrinne Yu taken in 2010 (2 part video interview) .. when asked about future directions for game development thru her eyes (lead architect at Xbox Halo)

http://channel9.msdn.com/Shows/Tech...Engine-Architect-Halo-Team-Microsoft-Part-One

http://channel9.msdn.com/Shows/Tech...ne-Architect-for-Halo-Team-Microsoft-Part-Two

 

[COPS N RAPPERS]

VG 247's latest info does not compute. no info on there counter parts of both consoles are explained; an A10 with no GPU (ps4), and A GPU with no CPU (xbox 3) are listed.

perhaps they're just fueling off of old info.

 

[joesiv]

IBM-AMD working with Microsoft using huge amounts of teams, patents, and money. This is a big thing not some small insignificant thing being worked on. Nintendo didn't do this.

Not sure if this is a thread worth following but I couldn't resist. Nintendo has spent over a billion US dollars on R&D (probably closer to 1.5B) since the release of the Wii... Not sure why you'd say Nintendo "isn't do this". Actually Nintendo has a long history of doing custom chipset's, specifically the CPU and GPU in the Gamecube which was jointly developed/customized by Nintendo/IBM/ArtX(ATI), and further refined in the Wii. Nintendo is known to have a really good working relationship with ATI, and that relationship is all about customizing chips, which is expensive!

Yeah that would be great. Sony has just presented their newest VR tech with the HMZ-T3 a couple of weeks ago, which is basically the same as the Oculus Rift. But I doubt they will bundle it with each PlayStation since the predecessor, the HMZ-T2, sells at around $900..

I wouldn't call it "VR", as it doesn't have any sensors AFAIK, so no head tracking like the OR. Essentially, they look like updated glasstrons (which I owned), but with 3d support (separate video feeds per eye). The Oculous Rift is meant for interactivity, and is more than the hardware but also the software integration. Though IF sony had an equivalent, I could see them putting support in their TRC's.

 

[upnorthsox]

The two are very different display technologies.
Occulus Rift is using a huge LCD screen (bad image quality, but cost advantage and very immersive FOV), while Sony uses a pair of OLED displays (expensive and lower FOV, but amazing image quality). I would assume they would add the Move sensor method and get a perfect 1:1 mapping of the head. Occulus Rift doesn't have position tracking as far as I know, just the angle. That's one of the reason people get headaches with VR, you move your head position and the view remains static, then the brain doesn't understand. The lag is also a major issue for any VR technology, I don't know if they can solve that.

Sorry, I just have a really hard time believing this. There's nothing about them that would be any more expensive than a Vita. In fact, most likely cheaper.

I just don't understand Sony on this one, they could have had this segment locked up now and pushing it as an extended feature to the PS line.

 

[DoctorFouad]

A review of the A10 APU with Piledriver CPUs that Sony is rumored to be using for PS4:

http://www.guru3d.com/articles_pages/amd_a10_5700k_review_apu,1.html

thanks as expected, good GPU, bad CPU. going from CELL to AMD APUs I ear for first party developers at sony, they would be shocked if true...

 

[anexanhume]

Also the claims around RayTracing, etc. You can hear in these interviews from Corrinne Yu taken in 2010 (2 part video interview) .. when asked about future directions for game development thru her eyes (lead architect at Xbox Halo)

http://channel9.msdn.com/Shows/Tech...Engine-Architect-Halo-Team-Microsoft-Part-One

http://channel9.msdn.com/Shows/Tech...ne-Architect-for-Halo-Team-Microsoft-Part-Two

15:40 - 19:50 in part 1 for those interested. She's speaking generically regarding game programming as a whole, and she talks about increased programmer freedom and creativity, nothing about hardware specifically enabling or steering them.

 

[liquidboy]

15:40 - 19:50 in part 1 for those interested. She's speaking generically regarding game programming as a whole, and she talks about increased programmer freedom and creativity, nothing about hardware specifically enabling or steering them.

yep RayTracing is the tip of the iceberg, what is really going on is the return of the software rasterizer..

Basically you build your pipline and engine in anyway you want and programmable chips will take your code and run it.

If you don't want a forward rendering pipeline then build one that goes the way you want..

If you don't want ever step of the traditional pipeline, pull out the ones you don't want..

...

Lots of her ideas resonate with me ...

And I really hope we see lots of these ideas in the upcoming Xbox design, which I'm betting we will...

 

[MrFox]

Sorry, I just have a really hard time believing this. There's nothing about them that would be any more expensive than a Vita. In fact, most likely cheaper.

I just don't understand Sony on this one, they could have had this segment locked up now and pushing it as an extended feature to the PS line.

Different ball game. Samsung OLED on glass is basically a layer of oled on the same TFT circuitry and glass substrate like LCDs, made on huge panels at a time. They did invest billions and billions to fab them in reasonable volume and cost. They were struggling to go beyond 300ppi and just recently succeeded.

OTOH, Sony needs to make this OLED on a silicon substrate to achieve the dot pitch they have at 2560ppi. This is a very serious achievement and will probably cost a lot to make them until they have a huge volume. But I suppose the price could drop like a brick if they start selling it as an accessory to the PS4.

 

[jonabbey]

thanks as expected, good GPU, bad CPU. going from CELL to AMD APUs I ear for first party developers at sony, they would be shocked if true...

Well, bad relative to desktop Intel. Pretty darn good compared to what's in PS3/360 for most things.

 

[XpiderMX]

yep RayTracing is the tip of the iceberg, what is really going on is the return of the software rasterizer..

Epic said the same, but they are talking about years from today, not too soon.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Ray tracing will be in, we've had multiple people on this board post about it.

If enough people say something is true, that makes it true. Well known scientific fact.