Predict: The Next Generation Console Tech

[rekator]

You have Background downloading when you're playing not online, or for a video system is not the best.
I don't buy the record function on 360 or nextbox like a DVR, more thinking of a Cloud record service, who stream to you the emission you want, who'll be also available for Arcade 360.

 

[MfA]

Custom RAM on a MCM might use an eDRAM process, but that doesn't make it eDRAM ... it can't achieve the same level of performance and open up radically different approaches in the way of say the Graphics Synthesizer.

At least not with traditional MCMs, wide-IO with TSV is almost as good as on die eDRAM ... but with Kutaragi gone I don't see anyone having the balls/insanity to go there.

 

[V3]

Speaking of Graphic Synthesizer, we know Sony made the 32MB version of it, if Sony go along with high count of SPUs to provide FLOPS for PS4, can they create a Graphic Synthesizer version 3 ? What does it needs to look like to compete with AMD Wii U and Xbox720 offering ?

Would GSv3 with 128MB eDRAM, with 128 ROPs with functional AA, 64 Texture units with proper filtering and compression support, high triangle setup rate to support tesselation and overdraw be sufficient ?

 

[AlNom]

They already allow background downloading don't they? So it wouldn't be a real stretch to allow for other processes in the background, right?

Nope... Downloads halt as soon as you load up a game. You can queue downloads, but that's it. There was the one occasion when Halo Anniversary bugged out and was downloading the Reach map pack while I was playing, but let me tell you that 1 frame per second isn't exactly what I would call a good experience...

At any rate, I would expect recording to be a lot worse than downloading as far as HDD usage goes (video encoding...). Having the game stream simultaneously would be just as horrible if not worse than those few games that were designed for simultaneous streaming from DVD and the HDD cache whilst installed (e.g. Halo 3). It's been over 3 years since game installs were introduced, and there can't really be that many games now that don't make better use of it (Skyrim technical achievements notwithstanding). Anyways, this is getting wholly off-topic and I feel like I'm just repeating myself regarding this.

 

[jonabbey]

Nope... Downloads halt as soon as you load up a game. You can queue downloads, but that's it. There was the one occasion when Halo Anniversary bugged out and was downloading the Reach map pack while I was playing, but let me tell you that 1 frame per second isn't exactly what I would call a good experience...

At any rate, I would expect recording to be a lot worse than downloading as far as HDD usage goes (video encoding...). Having the game stream simultaneously would be just as horrible if not worse than those few games that were designed for simultaneous streaming from DVD and the HDD cache whilst installed (e.g. Halo 3). It's been over 3 years since game installs were introduced, and there can't really be that many games now that don't make better use of it (Skyrim technical achievements notwithstanding). Anyways, this is getting wholly off-topic and I feel like I'm just repeating myself regarding this.

Hm, the PS3 does background downloading while you're playing a game, as long as the game isn't doing network multiplayer / traffic on its own.

Are you sure the 360 doesn't have a similar system?

 

[AlphaWolf]

Yes the 360 can download while playing. I guess there may be exceptions.

 

[Jedi2016]

I've done it on 360, but I think it only works for "offline" games, single-player and so forth. I've started downloads plenty of times, started playing a game, and it pops up twenty minutes later saying that such-and-such a file is finished downloading. I don't think it works for online games, though.. I remember seeing notices sometimes saying that the download was halting because I was playing something like TDU, which is always online. Unless they've changed it recently.. I haven't played Xbox in a while.

 

[TheWretched]

Torne and Playstation TV (or whatever the DVB-T receiver is called) can even record videos while in-game . At least I read that it does.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Speaking of Graphic Synthesizer, we know Sony made the 32MB version of it, if Sony go along with high count of SPUs to provide FLOPS for PS4, can they create a Graphic Synthesizer version 3 ? What does it needs to look like to compete with AMD Wii U and Xbox720 offering ?

Would GSv3 with 128MB eDRAM, with 128 ROPs with functional AA, 64 Texture units with proper filtering and compression support, high triangle setup rate to support tesselation and overdraw be sufficient ?

Nope (unless they introduce a new super-CPU to do all the calculations). GS is a dead end. PS2's approach was valid back then because we didn't have complex pixel shaders. Now we do, it's an inefficient and pointless strategy. Future GPUs will be either shader-model programmable, or something new and never before seen like raytracing, which ain't replacing triangle rasterising next-gen. And even with RT the shader pipelines will want to be kept. Oh, another option is the fully programmable CPU software rasteriser, which isn't happening any time soon either.

 

[Fafalada]

PS2's approach was valid back then because we didn't have complex pixel shaders.

That's actually somewhat false.
GS is a viable front-end to deferred shader pipeline - in fact this was possible on PS2 - if it wasn't for some memory interface deficiencies, it could well be the preferred way to render PS2 games.
On PS3 the analogy would have been something dumber(but much faster at rasterizing) then RSX, and more SPUs to work as your shader-backend (popularity of deferred renderers today speaks for itself here).

Of course, as rasterization costs continue to decrease relative to shading, the "dead-end" part is hard to disagree with, it was just a bit farther off then PS2 days, strictly speaking.

 

[onQ]

if one of the Next Gen Consoles happened to use the Ray-Tracing chip what would be some benefits?

could it take a lot of work off of the CPU/GPU for things like Reflections ,Lighting & other things freeing up the CPU/GPU.

 

[Rangers]

I've done it on 360, but I think it only works for "offline" games, single-player and so forth. I've started downloads plenty of times, started playing a game, and it pops up twenty minutes later saying that such-and-such a file is finished downloading. I don't think it works for online games, though.. I remember seeing notices sometimes saying that the download was halting because I was playing something like TDU, which is always online. Unless they've changed it recently.. I haven't played Xbox in a while.

It seems to always stop my download when I start playing a game even if it's a single player game. It did this just the other day when I was playing Halo Anniversary campaign.

It's actually pretty annoying. The download seems to automatically resume once you go back to the dash.

Maybe anybody else has more insight into this? I thought that was the wholepoint of the "background downloading" was to allow you to play while downloading? Of course I understand online multiplayer would be impossible but a campaign shouldn't be a problem.

/ot

 

[DuckThor Evil]

It does download while playing games. Often it stops for a moment when you launch a game, but resumes if there isn't any Xbox Live activity. I think there are some single player games that are connected to Live and won't allow simultaneous downloading, but I don't know how many.

I think you can check the active downloads during a game by pressing the Xbox button.

 

[AlNom]

It does download while playing games. Often it stops for a moment when you launch a game, but resumes if there isn't any Xbox Live activity. I think there are some single player games that are connected to Live and won't allow simultaneous downloading, but I don't know how many.

Well, now that there are EA games that do tracking during the SP, I don't expect the download activity to start. At any rate, it's quite insignificant HDD usage compared to encoding MPEG4-class files...

Anyways, kinda drifting OT again.

 

[Teasy]

TheChefO

You're much more optimistic than I am on how aggressive MS and Sony are going to go next gen. For instance I don't see the minimum GPU die size for next gen being well above the maximum from the current gen. Perhaps the reality will be somewhere in-between both our predictions.

7970 is only 365 MM^2...on 28nm, there's equal possibility we would see 20nm.

I suppose that depends on when you believe each console will be released. I'm assuming third quarter 2013, and I don't see 22nm being a likely process for that considering production will need to start several months earlier.

 

[rekator]

Well, now that there are EA games that do tracking during the SP, I don't expect the download activity to start. At any rate, it's quite insignificant HDD usage compared to encoding MPEG4-class files...

They're no MPEG4 encoding in the vision of MS. no need. First the stream is always encoding and second a cloud streaming is a better offer for them and their partners, no real data at customers home.

 

[Devious]

I know 128MB of eDRAM is sort of out of the equation for next-gen consoles, but if by some divine reason we happen to get that much eDRAM, will that be "enough" for some developers?

How about for any of you B3D members, is 128MB enough to satisfy your needs and then some? Or will you still be running into a brick wall?

EDIT: Oh and if possible, give me a situation where devs would reach the limit on 128MB of eDRAM for consoles.

 

[AlNom]

EDIT: Oh and if possible, give me a situation where devs would reach the limit on 128MB of eDRAM for consoles.

1280x720 4xFP16 render targets + 1x32bpp depth buffer, 4xMSAA -> Should fit just under that (126.56MB), assuming you mean 1MB = 1024*1024 bits.

1920x1080 3x32bpp render targets + 1x32bpp depth buffer, 4xMSAA is 126.56MB.
1920x1080 3xFP16 render targets + 1x32bpp depth buffer, 2xMSAA is about 110.74MB.

 

[Squilliam]

1280x720 4xFP16 render targets + 1x32bpp depth buffer, 4xMSAA -> Should fit just under that (126.56MB), assuming you mean 1MB = 1024*1024 bits.

1920x1080 3x32bpp render targets + 1x32bpp depth buffer, 4xMSAA is 126.56MB.
1920x1080 3xFP16 render targets + 1x32bpp depth buffer, 2xMSAA is about 110.74MB.

Should you be assuming MSAA? With reasonably flexible eDRAM they could use alternative AA methods, couldn't they?

 

[Rangers]

Yeah really. In that case I'd hope they never use MSAA, rather FXAA or something and save mountains of EDRAM.